Matthew Tkachuk & Johnny Gaudreau Signing Watch Thread

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

But moving a 1st and 2 2nds for an established player because the team surprised and got to the second round and now you want to try and compete by trading away futures for established players, is that not the opposite of a "rebuild" period?

No. It's a strategic move made along the way. The Flames had nobody in the pipeline who could have done Hamilton's job (knowing, as they did, that Fox was never going to sign here), so they had to trade for it.

If you arbitrarily say that a rebuild ends the moment a team makes a trade for an established NHLer, you will find that most rebuilds suddenly get a lot shorter.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

No. It's a strategic move made along the way. The Flames had nobody in the pipeline who could have done Hamilton's job (knowing, as they did, that Fox was never going to sign here), so they had to trade for it

So they made a move to acquire Hamilton knowing that Fox would never sign here but drafted Fox a year after acquiring Hamilton. Hmm.

Acquiring an NHL player isn't the end of a rebuild. But when you trade multiple picks, sign high-profile UFAs, in order to build off the success of a 2nd round playoff finish, that's probably the end of the rebuild.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

No. It's a strategic move made along the way. The Flames had nobody in the pipeline who could have done Hamilton's job (knowing, as they did, that Fox was never going to sign here), so they had to trade for it.

When the Flames traded for Hamilton they hadn't even drafted Fox yet.

[MrMike]

Hamilton was a home run. Perfect asset management. He was worth more than when you acquired him.

[activeStick]

Yeah, Hamilton's timeline was one of those neat cases where I loved the deal made to acquire him, was happy with him while he was a Flame, and then also loved the deal made when we traded him out

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

So they made a move to acquire Hamilton knowing that Fox would never sign here but drafted Fox a year after acquiring Hamilton. Hmm.

Sorry, I misspoke; I was thinking of the trade where they moved Fox, because you were talking about them giving up their best prospect in the Hamilton trade.

Very well, then: I amend my statement. Since Fox wasn't even in the system, the Flames had NO ONE who could do Hamilton's job.

Acquiring an NHL player isn't the end of a rebuild. But when you trade multiple picks, sign high-profile UFAs, in order to build off the success of a 2nd round playoff finish, that's probably the end of the rebuild.

Only if you are locked into binary thinking and must categorize everything as ‘rebuild’ or ‘not rebuild’. Nobody in the Flames' organization was stupid enough to think the team was complete and a contender after the 2015 trades.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

How is saying they traded their top prospect losing credibility? He was competing for Valamaki at the time with the better analysts saying he was their top prospect: https://theathletic.com/196975/2018/...pects-ranking/

Yes, he had completed his second year in Havard and was going to be able to sign where he wanted in a couple years if he decided to get his degree, so the Flames made a great trade in getting something for him, but they still included their top prospect in a trade to acquire established players. That's very rarely a sign of a rebuild. I would say you would have to agree with me but it's looking like I could say that Iginla was drafted by Dallas and you would argue he was drafted by Florida for no other reason to disagree.

But that wasn't even the first trade in the chain. They traded their 2015 pick, an 18 year old player, for an older player in 2015. So trading first round picks for an established player, then trading that established player with a top prospect to get established players. They were both good trades resulting in quality players for the Flames, but they were not moves made by rebuilding teams. Saying they were not moves of a rebuilding team does not mean they aren't good trades, it means they aren't rebuilding moves. You guys like making up arguments in your head while ignoring the original discussion.

If tomorrow the Flames (or any team) acquired Yakupov, Galchenyuk and Reinhart from the 2012 draft, would that retroactively mean they were rebuilding in 2012 now? No? Then how does acquiring the 5th overall in 2015 in 2018 mean they were rebuilding in 2015?

As for Barzal, he was the faller that year (and Kylington). https://flamesnation.ca/2015/06/25/2015-nhl-mock-draft/ had him at 6 and Boston making a Juolevi x3 level of error you would have that Treliving would not make. And thank God they did. If they didn't try to be the smartest people in the room and just drafted Barzal, Connor and Chabot, we wouldn't even be having a discussion because it would be a foregone conclusion that this decade the Cup belongs to the Bruins.

I don't need a novel every post

Saying the Flames traded their top prospect in Fox is obviously a major stretch to make the deal seem worse.

He wasn't ever going to sign with anyone but the Rangers, Fox was never actually a Flames or Hurricanes prospect at all

[OptimalTates]

So a trade that occurred in 2018 was indicative that the Flames were rebuilding in 2015 because admitting they weren't patient enough to actually rebuild like those teams that just fought for the Cup is for what exactly? So if they continue to sign UFAs and trade away picks to keep the team in a constant state of mediocrity like it has been for the last decade+ won't seem like a waste if Gaudreau leaves?

I mean if you're signing high profile UFAs and trading away multiple high picks and prospects including those in future years and not just the current one, and you're still rebuilding, then Montreal is on year 123 of their rebuild because you're never not rebuilding.

I just don't get it, the Flames are known for not "tanking" and rebuilding and trying to ice the best team it can. It's a noble goal, but it's very clearly at odds with rebuilding and it's becoming more and more apparent that rebuilding is the key to the Cup.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Trojan97

Heard earlier today from a source that is very tied into the org and has shared some really early news with me in the past that Johnny is really close to returning. Take that for what you will!

Thank you for sharing with us!

[Vinny01]

Saw the Trelviing interview with Leslie today and he was clear that the only thing he is focused on is getting Gaudreau and Tkachuk signed. No talks of trades at all, and he also said he was optimistic but he is optimistic by nature.

[mile]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1542669646418980865

[agulati]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Saw the Trelviing interview with Leslie today and he was clear that the only thing he is focused on is getting Gaudreau and Tkachuk signed. No talks of trades at all, and he also said he was optimistic but he is optimistic by nature.

I wouldn’t expect anything otherwise from all the rumors that have been leaked. Sounds like Johnny hasn’t said anything either way yet, so he is probably still mulling it over. Tre will probably continue trying to sign him, until Johnny clearly states he is going to free agency.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Always appreciate stuff like this on here. Thanks

All I want is for dissentowner to be able to gloat, laugh at us doubters and say he told us so.

I won't gloat or be boasting and saying I told you so, everybody knows what my thoughts were. I would much rather celebrate with the board in having our star player here long term. We are all Flames fans, sometimes we step on each others toes but sometimes we should just come together and celebrate.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by MrMike

If both of them leave, it’s a no brainer to start a rebuild.

Dreger just said he thinks Campbell will get 6 per on the market. Runner up Vezina and attractive pieces should be sold off.

If this was any other team that’s what would happen...

I seriously doubt it.

Most teams fall into rebuilding, and usually not until they have experienced failure. I fully expect that in this situation you describe most teams would try to make a go of it for a year, and then re-evaluate, and I expect the same from the Flames.

Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

[Jay Random]

Yeah, I'd like to see this list of teams that went from a 110-point season and first place in their division straight into a rebuild.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I seriously doubt it.

Most teams fall into rebuilding, and usually not until they gave experienced failure. I fully expect that in this situation you describe most teams would try to make a go of it for a year, and then re-evaluate, and I expect the same from the Flames.

Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

You're likely right but I think it's a poor strategy. A team that was proactive with a rebuild would likely shorten their rebuild time significantly and be competitive years earlier.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Yeah, I'd like to see this list of teams that went from a 110-point season and first place in their division straight into a rebuild.

If Johnny and Tkachuk were gone that's irrelevant.

[Roof-Daddy]

It's been said repeatedly, but even if Johnny walks the Flames aren't going to rebuild this off season.

Closest thing would be some sort of St. Louis Blues circa 2018 style retooling.

They have a Vezina finalist goalie in his prime and the coach of the year behind the bench who's sole purpose for coming back here was to push this team over the top...."unfinished business".

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

It's been said repeatedly, but even if Johnny walks the Flames aren't going to rebuild this off season.

Closest thing would be some sort of St. Louis Blues circa 2018 style retooling.

They have a Vezina finalist goalie in his prime and the coach of the year behind the bench who's sole purpose for coming back here was to push this team over the top...."unfinished business".

Very true. 9th place here we come.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Yoho

Very true. 9th place here we come.

pretty sure you said that last summer