Matthew Tkachuk & Johnny Gaudreau Signing Watch Thread

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

It took 9 years to win the Cup, yes, but not 9 years to "complete" the rebuild. They are back-to-back President Trophy winners, and in the shutdown 2019 season they were 2 points behind St. Louis (94 points in 71 games compared to 92 points in 70 games) for first in the west. They have made the playoffs 5 years in a row.



So it takes more then a year to rebuild. Something the Flames haven't figured out yet lol.

I’m reliably told regular season means nothing.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

In 2019 the Flames had the following

2013 5th overall pick
2013 6th overall pick
2014 4th overall pick
2015 5th overall pick
2016 6th overall pick

Those drafts were their rebuild years. They picked 3 of the 5 themselves but at the end of the day they had 5 top 6 picks from a 4 year period on their team

In the off-season for the 2012-2013 season they traded a pick to sign Wideman and Hudler for almost 10M a year. They also resigned veterans, Sarich, Comeau, Jones and Stempniak while they only let Jokinen walk. Rebuilding teams would have traded their aging UFA star player instead of trying to win by signing/re-signing support players around him.

Just because they sucked, didn't mean they tried to rebuild.

And then they traded their 1st round pick in 2015 instead of drafting Barzal for the established older Hamilton. Then they traded Hamilton, Ferland and their top prospect for Lindholm and Hanafin. Yet we're counting 2015, when they moved their pick for an established player, as a rebuild year?

[OptimalTates]

But I agree with Vinny01 that those were the Flames interpretation of rebuild years. Signing high priced UFAs, sticking with aging players, and trading away high draft picks but because they sucked for a year, there need to go all-in right after. That's the problem. They don't rebuild, not in earnest.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

In the off-season for the 2012-2013 season they traded a pick to sign Wideman and Hudler for almost 10M a year. They also resigned veterans, Sarich, Comeau, Jones and Stempniak while they only let Jokinen walk. Rebuilding teams would have traded their aging UFA star player instead of trying to win by signing/re-signing support players around him.

Just because they sucked, didn't mean they tried to rebuild.

And then they traded their 1st round pick in 2015 instead of drafting Barzal for the established older Hamilton. Then they traded Hamilton, Ferland and their top prospect for Lindholm and Hanafin. Yet we're counting 2015, when they moved their pick for an established player, as a rebuild year?

They clearly didn’t start that year in rebuild mode but did you forget they traded Iginla, and Bouwmeester at the deadline and decided to embrace the rebuild? They entered the year with a new coach and hopes to compete. That team waited too long but on 2013 they decided to tear it down. Kipper also was shopped but refused to be moved.

Older Hamilton was freshly 22 years old and already an established top 4 Dman. The same age as their Calder nominated first line forward Johnny Gaudreau. They also had 20 year old Sean Monahan scoring 30+, 18 year old Sam Bennett looking good in the playoffs and won a round the year before. They added a 22 year old and 27 year old in free agency.

They ended up with the 5th overall pick in 2015 at the end of the day. It cost Hamilton who was great but the team took a step back 2 of the next 3 years so they moved him, and pending UFA and a 3rd round pick who had no desire to sign with the team and never would have for a 21 and 23 year old former 5th overall picks.

[GioforPM]

“Older established” 21 year old Hamilton. And yeah, trading in 2015 for a 2011 9 OA and then upgrading to a 2013 5OA and 2015 5OA is part of a rebuild.

[Vinny01]

In my opinion the only time things were rushed was when they paid an insane price for Hamonic who was turning 27 during his first season in Calgary. Unlike Hamilton where the picks were established when traded they moved a future unprotected 1st that was almost 2nd overall but luckily the Flames won the last game and leaped Carolina in the standings and they proceeded to win the 2nd pick.

I still think the Hamilton acquisition and trade 3 years later are the best 2 trades Treliving has made as Flames GM

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

To Flyers:
Gaudreau (signed 8 years)
2023 2nd round pick (expected to be in the 32-40th spot)

To Calgary:
JVR
2023 1st round pick (expected to be in that 16th-24th spot but no lottery protection)

To New Jersey:
Tkachuk (with intention to sign long-term)

To Calgary:
2nd overall pick

To Arizona:
Lindholm
JVR (50% for 2M salary)

To Calgary:
34th pick in 2022
1st round pick in 2023
Ladd

I mean it's easy to map out a successful rebuild when you conceive trades that the other team wouldn't do.

The other risk with the 2023 draft is that one of the 3 franchise players is in Russia and signed to the KHL for several more years. And that was the risk before the new dynamics with Russia have emerged.

[Harry Lime]

The only two picks that are rumoured to be in play are Jersey at #2 and Ottawa at #7, and both have said that they are fine with picking if nothing arises. Not a single team has peeped about 2023.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

The only two picks that are rumoured to be in play are Jersey at #2 and Ottawa at #7, and both have said that they are fine with picking if nothing arises. Not a single team has peeped about 2023.

A lot of teams probably look at Tkachuk and see him as their future franchise player. He's a 100 point winger with those playoff "intangibles". I bet that if Tkachuk hinted that he would extend with them, multiple teams would be offering up huge assets, including 2023 draft picks.

Honestly, I wouldn't be opposed to selling high on Tkachuk. He's a 70-80 point winger without Gaudreau, and his intangibles tend to fizzle out come playoff time.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by blankall

A lot of teams probably look at Tkachuk and see him as their future franchise player. He's a 100 point winger with those playoff "intangibles". I bet that if Tkachuk hinted that he would extend with them, multiple teams would be offering up huge assets, including 2023 draft picks.

Honestly, I wouldn't be opposed to selling high on Tkachuk. He's a 70-80 point winger without Gaudreau, and his intangibles tend to fizzle out come playoff time.

Yeah, those PO intangibles. - I’m still waiting.

[Jay Random]

This:

Originally Posted by blankall

A lot of teams probably look at Tkachuk and see him as their future franchise player. He's a 100 point winger with those playoff "intangibles".

Is directly contradicted by this:

Honestly, I wouldn't be opposed to selling high on Tkachuk. He's a 70-80 point winger without Gaudreau, and his intangibles tend to fizzle out come playoff time.

Which is he, a franchise player or a 70-80 point winger who fizzles out in the playoffs?

It seems to me you want to trade Tkachuk to a team that is willing to pay far too much for him. Easier said than done.

[GS Skier]

All I know for sure is Treliving is super secretive.

Seravelli's an "insider" however it appears he simply pumped Guadreau's agent until he gave "something" I.E. nothing happening right now ( 3 days ago ).

I don't read a thing into no news yet. Could happen in an hour could happen next week but until he walks he's still Flames property.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

This:



Is directly contradicted by this:



Which is he, a franchise player or a 70-80 point winger who fizzles out in the playoffs?

It seems to me you want to trade Tkachuk to a team that is willing to pay far too much for him. Easier said than done.

Sounds like he's saying the Flames should try to cash in on Tkachuk's career year if they can. Not a bad idea if someone is willing to pay IMO.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by GS Skier

I don't read a thing into no news yet. Could happen in an hour could happen next week but until he walks he's still Flames property.

And he really has no incentive to sign a deal until the last minute.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Sounds like he's saying the Flames should try to cash in on Tkachuk's career year if they can. Not a bad idea if someone is willing to pay IMO.

Sure, but why would anyone be willing to pay for a franchise player when all they are getting is Tkachuk? It's not like his shortcomings are a secret known only to the Flames.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

And he really has no incentive to sign a deal until the last minute.

If Johnny wants to stay in Calgary, he has the incentive to sign sooner rather than later so that Treliving can get to work building the team around him.

That's a big IF though.

[djsFlames]

Man I thought we put JVR in Flames trade proposals behind us like 7 years ago.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

If Johnny wants to stay in Calgary, he has the incentive to sign sooner rather than later so that Treliving can get to work building the team around him.

Making Treliving's job easier is not one of Gaudreau's responsibilities.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

And he really has no incentive to sign a deal until the last minute.

Yup.

Flames don't have any incentive to increase their offer yet - they are the only team that can offer 8 years and as of right now that's their leverage.

Gaudreau has no incentive to provide a new offer on his side - time is his only leverage up until July 13th (especially if he wants to stay and wants the 8th year)

I think it's pretty safe for Gaudreau's camp to assume they aren't going to go spend the money somewhere else in a trade before then - so don't have to worry about that.

So really there isn't incentive for either party to budge until closer to July 10th when negotiations will probably pick up and we will start hearing rumors about free agency (similar to Landeskog last year).

Also if the rumor that Gaudreau asked for another puck carrrier / help is true them maybe he's waiting to see if the Flames do something at the draft. Realistically both Mangiapane and Tkachuk could be in play for the Flames at the draft.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

In the off-season for the 2012-2013 season they traded a pick to sign Wideman and Hudler for almost 10M a year. They also resigned veterans, Sarich, Comeau, Jones and Stempniak while they only let Jokinen walk. Rebuilding teams would have traded their aging UFA star player instead of trying to win by signing/re-signing support players around him.

Just because they sucked, didn't mean they tried to rebuild.

And then they traded their 1st round pick in 2015 instead of drafting Barzal for the established older Hamilton. Then they traded Hamilton, Ferland and their top prospect for Lindholm and Hanafin. Yet we're counting 2015, when they moved their pick for an established player, as a rebuild year?

this guy, you are really losing all credibility here
top prospect that said he would only play for the Rangers

Lindholm/Hanafin>Barzal and that's with hindsight drafting...last I checked Bruins didn't take him with that pick