Matthew Tkachuk & Johnny Gaudreau Signing Watch Thread

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Not sure what’s false. I just asked the question, which you kindly answered.

My bad I read your post wrong

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

It is a creative way for a team with limited cap flexibility add a star free agent at a reduced cap number for the max term and for the team losing him for nothing to get something back. In this scenario Johnny is happy he gets to go to the Eastern team of his choice, Boston adds a new superstar to their team they would have a tough time signing otherwise, and Calgary salvaged something for a player that is prepared to walk for nothing.

No chance Treliving’s head rolls if this went down. It is more realistic than you are willing to admit.

Ok, if it's realistic give me a list of star players in the NHL that have signed an 8 year deal for a trade and sign. How about a trade and sign at all? Go ahead, I will wait. This is not the NBA.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Yes, him trading the biggest star in Calgary would go over so well. Continue with your out to lunch theories though. When have you seen an actual sign and trade in the NHL, let alone a star player? Sit down and shut up.

It was my theory and not Cobra’s.

Sorry I am still not sure you comprehend if you are harping on the trade side of it. This is a scenario where Johnny walks. This isn’t “let’s sign Johnny and flip him” this is “Johnny has told us he is going back East so we let him walk to NJ or trade him to Boston or Philly and take back a player so the cap works for them and we get some value back”

Really bizarre you seem to be taking this so personally?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Ok, if it's realistic give me a list of star players in the NHL that have signed an 8 year deal for a trade and sign. How about a trade and sign at all? Go ahead, I will wait. This is not the NBA.

Hossa but it was only a 3 year deal. Can’t remember why it went down that way.

Edit: possibly because they signed him expecting him to play for them but later that day he was the bottom line asking price for a player they really really wanted (Heatly).

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

It was my theory and not Cobra’s.

Sorry I am still not sure you comprehend if you are harping on the trade side of it. This is a scenario where Johnny walks. This isn’t “let’s sign Johnny and flip him” this is “Johnny has told us he is going back East so we let him walk to NJ or trade him to Boston or Philly and take back a player so the cap works for them and we get some value back”

Really bizarre you seem to be taking this so personally?

I am not, just tired of Cobra jumping on everything I post on here with some snarky comment.

[OptimalTates]

So let me get this straight. The guy who thinks it would be a good idea to have Treliving break a verbal commitment (illegal) to trick Gaudreau into signing with the Flames is the one saying a sign and trade is out to lunch?

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Ok, if it's realistic give me a list of star players in the NHL that have signed an 8 year deal for a trade and sign. How about a trade and sign at all? Go ahead, I will wait. This is not the NBA.

So if it has never happened before it can never happen in the future?

Like I said there was discussion with the Leafs/Oilers on Hyman and teams couldn’t agree on value. Flat cap makes things tough GM’s need to be creative and I think this is a fairly creative solution. Not the one I want as I want Johnny to be a Flame for 8 more years but if that is not the case I would prefer a proven 25 year old (who has asked for a trade) over a draft pick, or nothing at all.

[GioforPM]

I can’t see a sign and trade because there are too many other pieces in play for the Flames and too much has to happen. Sign and trade to me would signal a burn it down strategy because they have determined (days in advance) that they can’t meet Gaudreau’s demands. But at the same time they are dealing with Tkachuk who they may as well also trade if that’s the case. And Mangiapane as well. They have to (a) decide they can’t meet Gaudreau’s price, (b) scramble to find trades for Gaudreau (with a team who will meet the price) and probably also one or both of Tkachuk and Mangiapane.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

So if it has never happened before it can never happen in the future?

Like I said there was discussion with the Leafs/Oilers on Hyman and teams couldn’t agree on value. Flat cap makes things tough GM’s need to be creative and I think this is a fairly creative solution. Not the one I want as I want Johnny to be a Flame for 8 more years but if that is not the case I would prefer a proven 25 year old (who has asked for a trade) over a draft pick, or nothing at all.

Ok, if the Flames do a sign and trade this year with Gaudreau I will donate $1000 to CP. That's how sure I am this is just not a possibility.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

So let me get this straight. The guy who thinks it would be a good idea to have Treliving break a verbal commitment (illegal) to trick Gaudreau into signing with the Flames is the one saying a sign and trade is out to lunch?

I never said that, I said if Gaudreau wants a sign and trade you don't have to trade him for Jake DeBrusk or right after. So are you saying that Gaudreau signed to an 8 year deal has the value of DeBrusk? Ya, I am the one out to lunch here. Anyone else think Johnny Gaudreau on a long term deal is worth no more than Jake DeBrusk? Anyone?

[Manhattanboy]

Well if true and the Flames made a recent offer, let’s see if there’s a counter offer anytime soon.

That’s key.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I never said that, I said if Gaudreau wants a sign and trade you don't have to trade him for Jake DeBrusk or right after. So are you saying that Gaudreau signed to an 8 year deal has the value of DeBrusk? Ya, I am the one out to lunch here. Anyone else think Johnny Gaudreau on a long term deal is worth no more than Jake DeBrusk? Anyone?

I'm sure you must actually understand the concept of a sign and trade, but the more you talk the less I'm sure...

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I never said that, I said if Gaudreau wants a sign and trade you don't have to trade him for Jake DeBrusk or right after. So are you saying that Gaudreau signed to an 8 year deal has the value of DeBrusk? Ya, I am the one out to lunch here. Anyone else think Johnny Gaudreau on a long term deal is worth no more than Jake DeBrusk? Anyone?

Intentionally obtuse? If Gaudreau and his agent say they are leaving and Flames say "look Boston has expressed interest in signing you to 8 years two-fillion total contract, you willing to sign this contract if we trade you to Boston immediately? " "Sure, I'll sign here if you trade me to Boston"

Then Treliving says "Sucker! You're here for life" Gaudreau files a grievance, at best the contract is voided, but more likely he ends up in Boston with that contract and the Flames are blacklisted by every agent and team in the league.

You're not trading Gaudreau for Debrusk. The Bruins are trading Debrusk for an 8th year of Gaudreau. (Though I don't think the actual return or even team is right).

[OptimalTates]

Of players who became UFAs post 2013 and were 28 or younger when they signed max-term (I.E. the 8th year is still a year the teams reasonably expect/hope the player to play) here's what I believe is a complete list:

Panarin - Blue Jackets believed they were in the running until the deadline, offering a massive contract right before free agency.

Tavares - Islanders believed it was between them and Toronto. Still rumoured to have offered Toronto a sign-and-trade according to Myrtle.

Dougie - Signed with divisional rival.

Duchene

Lee - Re-signed with Islanders after deadline.

Okposo - 2016 UFA

Lucic - 2016 UFA

2016 UFA period had one obvious player up until last minute but had they not come to an agreement, Yzerman went public and said they would be willing to sign-and-trade him. Otherwise, once he re-signed, the second tier of players were in abundance (Lucic, Okposo, Brouwer, Nielsen, Ladd etc.) and none of them really worthy to try and get that 8th year (thankfully for the GMs that year...).

So Tavares was offered in a sign-and-trade, Stamkos would have been, and even Hyman somehow. I mean the 8th year has only started since 2013 CBA and in that time frame very few elite players that entered UFA in their prime.

The only player that sort of doesn't have a reason why is Duchene. He had determined he was going to Nashville before the UFA period started, so would have made sense for Nashville to try and get that 8th year (and maybe they did try but price was too high when they knew Duchene was already committed to them).

[powderjunkie]

It seems like we've seen a lot fewer trades for UFA signing rights than we used to - anyone recall recent examples?

[Coach]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

It seems like we've seen a lot fewer trades for UFA signing rights than we used to - anyone recall recent examples?

Not many. Draft picks are too valuable to give away for a couple weeks of bargaining power.

[OptimalTates]

Also the "could you imagine how Treliving would be lambasted if they traded Gaudreau for something when they could just let him walk and get nothing!" is an argument I just can't wrap my head around.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

It seems like we've seen a lot fewer trades for UFA signing rights than we used to - anyone recall recent examples?

Keep in mind for a period we had the UFA negotiation period where teams could talk openly with to-be free agents before July 1st..without saying numbers but like it doesn't sound like anyone really followed that.

Plus the expansion drafts, and really there wasn't many rights traded before that though. Two or three a year probably.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

It seems like we've seen a lot fewer trades for UFA signing rights than we used to - anyone recall recent examples?

Goodrow last year

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Coach

Not many. Draft picks are too valuable to give away for a couple weeks of bargaining power.

IIRC it was pretty rare for them to happen as a blind trade - usually the GM knew they weren't re-signing the player and gave other teams permission to negotiate with an understanding of the price to sign them immediately.