GM - Daryl Morey

[shutout]

https://www.preposterousuniverse.com...nd-basketball/

Granted Daryl Morey is the GM of the NBA Philadelphia 76ers and is on a physics podcast, but if you want to get some different insight into how teams look at data and how they use it to improve their competitive advantage is is a really good listen.

While there are some major differences between hockey and basketball, the theory of how to manage people, build teams, scouting departments, analyze and draft players is probable pretty close.

Couple of items that really stood out to me was to be one of the best in the league you just need to be looking to make 3-5% improvements that nobody else is doing. Second that interviewing the players is pretty much useless and has zero correlation to how well they play the sport.

Maybe it should be off topic, but with the managerial challenges the Flames have had and the potentially significant changes that they are looking at in the offseason it helps to have a deeper understanding of the GM job perspective.

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by shutout

Second that interviewing the players is pretty much useless and has zero correlation to how well they play the sport

I think this is more used for the character of a person, kind of like how Burkie said Yakapov was on his no draft list.

[SuperMatt18]

Honestly I think the NHL as whole is behind in this aspect.

Other leagues (MLB and NBA specifically) have seen move teams move away from ex-players being the head of teams to more analytic focused and business focused GMs.

Guys like Daryl Morey and Masai Urjiri in the NBA.

A guy like a Theo Epstein in the MLB.

NHL still is very much focused on ex-players or "Lifetime hockey guys" to be the GM but really those guys might have hockey knowledge but don't always actually have business logic or understand how to build a team around them to be successful.

[Erick Estrada]

Personally I feel the NHL should go the way of NFL in hiring GM's with business/law degrees surrounded by quality scouts and ex-coaches. There are too many ex-players and scouts with no business acumen running organizations. It's laughable that guys like Jim Benning (good talent evaluator but that's it) are handed the keys to an organization.

[shutout]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Personally I feel the NHL should go the way of NFL in hiring GM's with business/law degrees surrounded by quality scouts and ex-coaches. There are too many ex-players and scouts with no business acumen running organizations. It's laughable that guys like Jim Benning (good talent evaluator but that's it) are handed the keys to an organization.

That's funny in a sad way for the Flames, because I remember when Craig Button was made the GM and the biggest reason for why it was a good hire is because he was supposedly a great scout and talent evaluator. It is becoming such a small part of a GM job if you build the proper staff.

[Strange Brew]

I’m a big Morey fan. The guy knows basketball but not an ex player at any competitive level.

He hasn’t won the ultimate prize but he always has a clear plan on what he is trying to achieve. He’s very active, in on lots of deals, but also gets deals done. He has had teams knocking on the door which i’d argue is all an exec can be responsible for accomplishing.

His biggest criticism in Houston early in his tenure was that he viewed players too much as assets and had a bit of merciless approach to shuffling players in and out.

I kind of thought Treliving would be more like this but I’m finding he’s still very much an old school type of GM. NHL is still very traditional in this respect.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I kind of thought Treliving would be more like this but I’m finding he’s still very much an old school type of GM. NHL is still very traditional in this respect.

That was my hope as well. I suppose we should have known better given Burke hired him. He's repeated a lot of the sins of previous regimes and here we are starting at another rebuild with most of the teams best assets values past their peak.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

**Edited for size**

NHL still is very much focused on ex-players or "Lifetime hockey guys" to be the GM but really those guys might have hockey knowledge but don't always actually have business logic or understand how to build a team around them to be successful.

This is what I think as well, and I also think the term 'hockey guy' is also kind of dumb. What is a 'hockey guy'. How do you consider someone a hockey guy? There is obviously no "Hockey Guy Degree" being offered at any university or college that I know of.


So do you have to play in the NHL at some point? JP21 got laughed at. Others never made it but are 100% accepted as hockey guys.


Maybe you had to play to at least another level? Ok, how many games? How many years do you have to play hockey and in what leagues to be considered a hockey guy? Up until he got into coaching, Scotty Bowman's record was pretty underwhelming, but there are zero people who don't consider him a hockey guy. That one is easy.


What about Feaster? Was he a hockey guy? So he may never be a hockey guy because he never played junior hockey, or pee wee? What about him being a GM of an AHL team and winning a championship? Does that make him a hockey guy? What about winning the Stanley Cup as a GM? Does that make him a hockey guy? Is there a threshold of total games managed, or number of seasons, or number of teams, or number of championships won?


Personally, I don't really care if the team I cheer for hires a non-hockey guy to do something, as long as he is competent at doing it. Being physically gifted enough to get and play in the NHL to me has very little bearing on how capable one is at managing a team, and even being a coach (Wayne Gretzky says hi, but there are definitely good NHL players that became good NHL coaches too).


I just don't even know how to qualify 'hockey guy' to begin with.

[powderjunkie]

Have any of these guys won anything outside of baseball yet?

Morey astutely recognized that 3*0.35 > 2*0.45. Ultimately it seems he hitched his wagon to Harden, an amazing player who hasn't been able to get it done in the biggest moments.

Beane was also a player. His A's made the playoff 8 out of 16 years, and only won 1 round...

Ujiri played a decade of pro ball in Europe...haven't heard him classified as a totally new school guy...

Nothing against these guys, but I'm not sure they've really earned their smartest guy in the room reputations...

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

This is what I think as well, and I also think the term 'hockey guy' is also kind of dumb. What is a 'hockey guy'. How do you consider someone a hockey guy? There is obviously no "Hockey Guy Degree" being offered at any university or college that I know of.


I just don't even know how to qualify 'hockey guy' to begin with.

Actually...:

Online MBA in Hockey Management
Our online format provides working professionals more flexibility than any other program on the market, without sacrificing academic rigour or peer-to-peer interaction.

https://business.athabascau.ca/onlin...management.php

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by shutout

https://www.preposterousuniverse.com...nd-basketball/

Granted Daryl Morey is the GM of the NBA Philadelphia 76ers and is on a physics podcast, but if you want to get some different insight into how teams look at data and how they use it to improve their competitive advantage is is a really good listen.

While there are some major differences between hockey and basketball, the theory of how to manage people, build teams, scouting departments, analyze and draft players is probable pretty close.

Couple of items that really stood out to me was to be one of the best in the league you just need to be looking to make 3-5% improvements that nobody else is doing. Second that interviewing the players is pretty much useless and has zero correlation to how well they play the sport.

Maybe it should be off topic, but with the managerial challenges the Flames have had and the potentially significant changes that they are looking at in the offseason it helps to have a deeper understanding of the GM job perspective.

The 3-5% improvements make sense. Everyone scouts and copies everything that any other team is doing. It’s an era of parity, so things like bad luck can really crush a team. Especially a team like the Flames this year. I’m interested to listen to how they build/manage/improve team psychology.

Thanks!!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

This is what I think as well, and I also think the term 'hockey guy' is also kind of dumb. What is a 'hockey guy'. How do you consider someone a hockey guy? There is obviously no "Hockey Guy Degree" being offered at any university or college that I know of.


So do you have to play in the NHL at some point? JP21 got laughed at. Others never made it but are 100% accepted as hockey guys.


Maybe you had to play to at least another level? Ok, how many games? How many years do you have to play hockey and in what leagues to be considered a hockey guy? Up until he got into coaching, Scotty Bowman's record was pretty underwhelming, but there are zero people who don't consider him a hockey guy. That one is easy.


What about Feaster? Was he a hockey guy? So he may never be a hockey guy because he never played junior hockey, or pee wee? What about him being a GM of an AHL team and winning a championship? Does that make him a hockey guy? What about winning the Stanley Cup as a GM? Does that make him a hockey guy? Is there a threshold of total games managed, or number of seasons, or number of teams, or number of championships won?


Personally, I don't really care if the team I cheer for hires a non-hockey guy to do something, as long as he is competent at doing it. Being physically gifted enough to get and play in the NHL to me has very little bearing on how capable one is at managing a team, and even being a coach (Wayne Gretzky says hi, but there are definitely good NHL players that became good NHL coaches too).


I just don't even know how to qualify 'hockey guy' to begin with.

Thing about Feaster - not only did he not play, he had no business management experience, and precious little legal experience (which was his training) before he walked into an AHL GM job (which was not only managing the team but also the building). Then he joined TB and sort of fell into the GM role by attrition after Demers and Dudley built the team and Torts took it off the ground.

[Kovaz]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Have any of these guys won anything outside of baseball yet?

Morey astutely recognized that 3*0.35 > 2*0.45. Ultimately it seems he hitched his wagon to Harden, an amazing player who hasn't been able to get it done in the biggest moments.

Beane was also a player. His A's made the playoff 8 out of 16 years, and only won 1 round...

Ujiri played a decade of pro ball in Europe...haven't heard him classified as a totally new school guy...

Nothing against these guys, but I'm not sure they've really earned their smartest guy in the room reputations...

I have a hard time criticizing the rockets for not winning. Any other era and they likely have a couple of championships, but they ran into arguably the greatest team ever and fell just a hair short.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Have any of these guys won anything outside of baseball yet?

Morey astutely recognized that 3*0.35 > 2*0.45. Ultimately it seems he hitched his wagon to Harden, an amazing player who hasn't been able to get it done in the biggest moments.

Beane was also a player. His A's made the playoff 8 out of 16 years, and only won 1 round...

Ujiri played a decade of pro ball in Europe...haven't heard him classified as a totally new school guy...

Nothing against these guys, but I'm not sure they've really earned their smartest guy in the room reputations...

No Morey didn't win the big prize with Houston. But he built a team that won year after year, was a contender, and did it without tearing the thing down putting an awful team on the floor. He never had a losing record.

IMO he did what you want a GM to do. Championships are ultimately won on the floor.

I'm signing up for that as a fan all day long.

[Pointman]

Morey was robbed of a title more blatantly than 2004 Flames. Rockets were murdered by the NBA refs in the game 7 against Warriors. NBA is a business league and they wanted a Warriors vs LeBron finals. The refereeing was so ridiculous, it was addressed by PBP guy and several players tweeting as it happened. The scandal was so big, Rockets owner legitimately told NBA he would sue them.

That Rockets team of Paul-Harden-Ariza-Tucker-Capela was perfectly constructed. They led 3-2 against Warriors and we're up in double digits in both Game 6 and Game 7.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Morey was robbed of a title more blatantly than 2004 Flames. Rockets were murdered by the NBA refs in the game 7 against Warriors. NBA is a business league and they wanted a Warriors vs LeBron finals. The refereeing was so ridiculous, it was addressed by PBP guy and several players tweeting as it happened. The scandal was so big, Rockets owner legitimately told NBA he would sue them.

That Rockets team of Paul-Harden-Ariza-Tucker-Capela was perfectly constructed. They led 3-2 against Warriors and we're up in double digits in both Game 6 and Game 7.

And then went 0-27 on 3s, you don’t get to blame refs at that point. That’s variance screwing you over.

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Beane was also a player. His A's made the playoff 8 out of 16 years, and only won 1 round...

This understates Beane’s impact. He took the small market team that gave up its stars and built a competitive roster on no money. His success led to every single team changing the way they operate. When a team with money followed this path they broke a 100 year drought. Small markets like Tampa Bay won a title.

Beans doing what he did in Oakland broke baseball and turned it into the garbage three true outcomes it is now. Baseball is almost solved. You can’t even debate which player is better anymore.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Morey was robbed of a title more blatantly than 2004 Flames. Rockets were murdered by the NBA refs in the game 7 against Warriors. NBA is a business league and they wanted a Warriors vs LeBron finals. The refereeing was so ridiculous, it was addressed by PBP guy and several players tweeting as it happened. The scandal was so big, Rockets owner legitimately told NBA he would sue them.

That Rockets team of Paul-Harden-Ariza-Tucker-Capela was perfectly constructed. They led 3-2 against Warriors and we're up in double digits in both Game 6 and Game 7.

Paul missing game 6 and 7 and ice cold shooting is what sunk the Rockets that series. The saying in Houston is they were a hamstring away from a title.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by GGG

And then went 0-27 on 3s, you don’t get to blame refs at that point.

Except that refs were literally the reason they went 0-27. Harden made a 3, but the ref called it back, claiming that there was a foul before the shot and the shot should have been counted. It was obviously a shot foul. Also there's no rule in basketball that if you miss many threes, you must surrender a game or something.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Paul missing game 6 and 7 and ice cold shooting is what sunk the Rockets that series. The saying in Houston is they were a hamstring away from a title.

To be fair, Igoudala went down for the Warriors as well

The details of the refereeing scandal are here:

The Houston Rockets believe officiating in last season's Western Conference finals cost them an NBA championship, and in a report since sent to the league, tabulated the net result of 81 potential missed calls and non-calls in Game 7 of that series between Houston and the Golden State Warriors

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...nals-bid-taken

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Pointman

To be fair, Igoudala went down for the Warriors as well

The details of the refereeing scandal are here:

The Houston Rockets believe officiating in last season's Western Conference finals cost them an NBA championship, and in a report since sent to the league, tabulated the net result of 81 potential missed calls and non-calls in Game 7 of that series between Houston and the Golden State Warriors

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...nals-bid-taken

That’s another reason Morey is a world class GM. His staff analyzes everything and they brought that to the league in hopes of improving their future treatment from the league. I don’t beleive anyone in the organization ever credibly believes officiating cost them the title and I certainly wouldn’t call it a scandal.

Igoudala doesn’t come close to equaling Paul. But injuries happen, Warriors were a deeper team. Rockets came awfully close to getting it done.