Brad Treliving needs to go

[Red]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

ROR was a miss. Some of these guys cost your favourite player. I actually think the first question was about UFAs (though I added trades), which is none of these guys except Toffoli.

The question still is about Treliving. Did he do a good job following up on his plan to build a big, tough to play against team.

We keep hearing how hard it is to acquire top players, but I just listed a bunch that somehow moved. We can debate which of them would improve this team and at what cost, but that's s different conversation. Point is, good players get moved too. He himself brought some, but he seems to like his defensemen. Nothing major at forward.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red

The question still is about Treliving. Did he do a good job following up on his plan to build a big, tough to play against team.

We keep hearing how hard it is to acquire top players, but I just listed a bunch that somehow moved. We can debate which of them would improve this team and at what cost, but that's s different conversation. Point is, good players get moved too. He himself brought some, but he seems to like his defensemen. Nothing major at forward.

Well, not all of those players fit the description (Toffoli ain’t big). But listing a bunch of players who moved doesn’t mean it isn’t hard. Two of the players were moved for each other, so that’s one transaction down (and it would have cost Tkachuk or Gaudreau), Stone was impossible, Kane had huge issues, and the rest aside from ROR at the time seemed like overpays.

[Red]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

We know Treliving was in on J Anderson, who fits the bill. The Jackets likely wanted a good young player (Valimaki or R Anderson) in return.

We don't know what they wanted. We know that Treliving didn't complete the trade.
Same with other players he was in on. He always says the price is too steep. Maybe he overvalues his players?
It's not like his non moves resulted in a good Flames team. This team needs some major changes. That won't happen with a guy that always has cold feet last minute.

[Red]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, not all of those players fit the description (Toffoli ain’t big). But listing a bunch of players who moved doesn’t mean it isn’t hard. Two of the players were moved for each other, so that’s one transaction down (and it would have cost Tkachuk or Gaudreau), Stone was impossible, Kane had huge issues, and the rest aside from ROR at the time seemed like overpays.

Toffoli is tougher than any of our top 6 players.

As for the rest, just a continuous stream of excuses. I said that the other day. We sit here and laugh about all these moron GMs making bad trades and overpaying in contracts. Every other team is either in cap hell or about to be in one. Been like that for years.
How is out team doing? A cap team that's headed for the bottom of the standings and no prospects to look forward to.
Wakey wakey people. We are doing it wrong. Gotta pay to get.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Red

We don't know what they wanted. We know that Treliving didn't complete the trade.
Same with other players he was in on. He always says the price is too steep. Maybe he overvalues his players?
It's not like his non moves resulted in a good Flames team. This team needs some major changes. That won't happen with a guy that always has cold feet last minute.

You can’t force other teams to trade with you. The return Columbus took for Anderson was a 25 year old centre coming off seasons with 45, 72, 44 points. What Flames offer do you pitch that beats it?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red

We don't know what they wanted. We know that Treliving didn't complete the trade.
Same with other players he was in on. He always says the price is too steep. Maybe he overvalues his players?
It's not like his non moves resulted in a good Flames team. This team needs some major changes. That won't happen with a guy that always has cold feet last minute.

We know what they got. Therefore to get the player, you have to beat that bid. So to get PLD you have to do better than Laine+Roslovic. To get Anderson you have to do better than Domi (and you have to be confident about signing Anderson). Miller - well everyone sneered at that trade at the time. Big contract, low production. Stone would have been a dumb trade. Kane was a 1st, a 4th and a plug. The pick was 20th. Calgary’s was 29th (Pelletier). So you’d have to add.

So, no, he didn’t get one of those guys.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

James Neal was supposed to be that guy.

James Neal was a colossal blunder and a complete misread by management. How they follow up from Brouwer right to Neal has me questioning if this organization knows anything at all about their group. Even today, #13 and #23’s constant carousel of right wingers has seen no end. It’s an absolute indictment on the pro scouting of this franchise that we’re approaching the end of Gaudreau’s sweetheart contract and this organization still cannot find the right fit for those 2 even after all these years.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

James Neal was a colossal blunder and a complete misread by management. How they follow up from Brouwer right to Neal has me questioning if this organization knows anything at all about their group. Even today, #13 and #23’s constant carousel of right wingers has seen no end. It’s an absolute indictment on the pro scouting of this franchise that we’re approaching the end of Gaudreau’s sweetheart contract and this organization still cannot find the right fit for those 2 even after all these years.

Most top lines these days are two stars and a utility player.

The failings of the Gaudreau-Monahan line are on Gaudreau and Monahan. Namely their disdain for defensive play and inability to adjust their game to playoffs intensity.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

James Neal was a colossal blunder and a complete misread by management. How they follow up from Brouwer right to Neal has me questioning if this organization knows anything at all about their group. Even today, #13 and #23’s constant carousel of right wingers has seen no end. It’s an absolute indictment on the pro scouting of this franchise that we’re approaching the end of Gaudreau’s sweetheart contract and this organization still cannot find the right fit for those 2 even after all these years.

On paper Neal was fine. 20+ goals every year, including rookie. Higher in many. Success on successful teams. Played on teams with speed games like Vegas and Pittsburgh.

What Treliving didn’t do was inquire as to why Vegas (and other teams) were so prepared to lose him. Or, for example, why Neal missed a bunch of games for Vegas in March and was pretty invisible when he came back.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Most top lines these days are two stars and a utility player. The days of teams loading up their top line with three stars are in the past.

The failings of the Gaudreau-Monahan line are on Gaudreau and Monahan. Namely their disdain for defensive play and inability to adjust their game to playoffs intensity.

It’s a real issue when you can’t play your top line against the opposition’s.

[Red]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You can’t force other teams to trade with you. The return Columbus took for Anderson was a 25 year old centre coming off seasons with 45, 72, 44 points. What Flames offer do you pitch that beats it?

I don't play silly trade proposal games.

Point is, players were available to be signed or traded for. He got cold feet and bailed.
He had outside forces nick the Bishop and Zucker deals. Could things have been different there? No one is asking why the Bishop deal was so last minute. The guy was on the radar for how many months? Could he not have made some pre-talks with King? I don't know, but throwing it out there as an odd reason to miss out.

[Red]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

We know what they got. Therefore to get the player, you have to beat that bid. So to get PLD you have to do better than Laine+Roslovic. To get Anderson you have to do better than Domi (and you have to be confident about signing Anderson). Miller - well everyone sneered at that trade at the time. Big contract, low production. Stone would have been a dumb trade. Kane was a 1st, a 4th and a plug. The pick was 20th. Calgary’s was 29th (Pelletier). So you’d have to add.

So, no, he didn’t get one of those guys.

Again we don't know what was offered and when. Stop manufacturing these scenarios where we had to do this or that.
For all we know Winnipeg's offer wasn't on the table till last minute.
For all we know Columbus would value some random Flame higher than Roslovic.

It's all assumptions and they are just wrong to bring up.

I don't need to break down every deal that was made and play kids game in telling you how I think player X is better return that Y and why Z is too much to give up. All of those "thoughts' are just our assumptions.

Bottom line is that Treliving wanted to get a large top line player and failed to deliver. Why? Well, it's not for lack of opportunities.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

On paper Neal was fine. 20+ goals every year, including rookie. Higher in many. Success on successful teams. Played on teams with speed games like Vegas and Pittsburgh.

What Treliving didn’t do was inquire as to why Vegas (and other teams) were so prepared to lose him. Or, for example, why Neal missed a bunch of games for Vegas in March and was pretty invisible when he came back.

Actually, Vegas wanted Neal back. The Flames just sadly outbid them.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.revi...-to-vegas/amp/

That’s what I’m saying though, your scouts have to know what’ll work and what won’t. If I can tell that the James Neal experiment was going to fail after watching him in 2 preseason games, then surely the higher ups in Flames management should’ve been more careful. Alas, that’s just another strike on their record.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red

I don't play silly trade proposal games.

Point is, players were available to be signed or traded for. He got cold feet and bailed.
He had outside forces nick the Bishop and Zucker deals. Could things have been different there? No one is asking why the Bishop deal was so last minute. The guy was on the radar for how many months? Could he not have made some pre-talks with King? I don't know, but throwing it out there as an odd reason to miss out.

So you are chucking the actual trades as evidence of the value needed in favour of “he got cold feet and bailed”. OK. Sure, if he’d just argued more, he could have gotten Anderson for less than what Montreal paid, or PLD for less than what Winnipeg paid. But you are then assuming other GMs are just stupid or lazy.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Red

I don't play silly trade proposal games.

Point is, players were available to be signed or traded for. He got cold feet and bailed.
He had outside forces nick the Bishop and Zucker deals. Could things have been different there? No one is asking why the Bishop deal was so last minute. The guy was on the radar for how many months? Could he not have made some pre-talks with King? I don't know, but throwing it out there as an odd reason to miss out.

How do you know he bailed? Perhaps what the Flames could offer was simply not what the other team offered.

[Locke]

More like 'Bad Treliving' amirite?

I'll go stand over here....

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I think the place that a GM can make their mark and define the team is though drafting. Sure, if the right UFA comes along, or you can obtain a guy in a trade, that's great.

But every year you get to draft 6-8 young prospects. That's where you have the opportunity to construct your identity.

And I think it's pretty clear that never happened

I think you make an assumption that fans and owners are patient which is simply not the case. Look at how much mud has been thrown at the Jets for taking that approach and they had a 1 year window where they looked like contenders in a decade. They have done a great job of drafting in the first round as well.

[Bonded]

Maybe value was too low this offseason but I think the big miss was not changing the Backlund, Gio, Monahan, and Gaudreau core in the offseason. It was not working and still isn't working. Miss there for sure but maybe the trade market wasn't there due to Covid

[Red]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

So you are chucking the actual trades as evidence of the value needed in favour of “he got cold feet and bailed”. OK. Sure, if he’d just argued more, he could have gotten Anderson for less than what Montreal paid, or PLD for less than what Winnipeg paid. But you are then assuming other GMs are just stupid or lazy.

Well no, I am not talking about the bits of all these trades. I don't really discuss such details because it's foolish. We dont know what is being offered and what is being available. Trade proposal discussions are not my thing.

What I did say is that Tre told us his plan. Big mean team.
7 years later they are anything but.

So all I am saying is that 7 years ago he had a vision.
Today, the team is not what he wanted. I am sure we can agree here?

So what's the excuse? He couldn't find a perfect forward on a perfect contract that he could plunk off waivers? Is that the bar we have for him?
That's what it sounds like, because some of you provide nothing but imaginary trade pieces needed or other excuses to show that acquiring any good players would have been a bad move. It's always an overpayment or something else. Except for the ones he does manage to complete. Those are good deals

I am just a fan. Build a good team already. How? Not my problem.

We have the money to spend to the cap.
Players, good and bad get moved. Trades happen.
Plenty of UFAs in the last few years.
So what's his problem?
I say he overvalues his players and gets cold feet when its time to pay up. You don't have to agree with that.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

How do you know he bailed? Perhaps what the Flames could offer was simply not what the other team offered.

Then add something.

Or bail.