Brad Treliving needs to go

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Last years trade deadline, sure. And that trade makes sense if you are tearing it down (and you also need to do a whole lot more). But there are people here who are saying Treliving needed to (a) spot the problem and (b) fix it a long time before that. And the expectation is that this would somehow = present day success. point is, you can't spin gold out of straw that much.

There is a lot of silly hyperbole in here, but I'm not sure how many people are saying anything like that.

I also advocated selling Brodie and Talbot (perhaps replacing them with cheaper pieces as necessary).

Then let the year play out and see how it goes [especially in Rittich and Monahan w/o JG]. If the team folds like a cheap tent, we'd be where we are now a year sooner.

Of course COVID de-railed how all of that would've gone. In the end we still would have had our chance against WPG. If Scheifele goes down, we advance. If he doesn't who knows?. Maybe Rittich poops the bed. Maybe he's even better than Talbot was. If Tkachuk doesn't go down, we still have a punchers chance against DAL.

Either way we'd be younger and have more future assets, whether we need to take another step back, or try to go forward again.

Originally Posted by Flamesforever99

I've been saying he's too cheap to make moves and no moves will be made this season and all of you lost your $###.

He's been doing nothing the last two seasons to make this team better and every time theres a big name available he cheaps out. Ducks offered Rackell for Bennett + 2nd and he was apparently offended. That means Bennets value is essentially a First and Brad still cheaped out.

I don't know what changes he'll make but if he's in charge of this rebuild/retool we're f#####.

Source?

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I have dozens of posts in last years trade speculation thread suggesting something around Johnny for Cozens + RD. Lots of fits on both sides to balance with more pieces.

So I'll take a victory lap on being right, even if I can't be sure what a realistic return really would have been.

right about what?

It is interesting, though, that you reference JG for Cozens and a RHS D. I was advocating for the exact same trade.

I also had the opportunity to talk to an NHL scout and floated this by him. He said he didn't think Buffalo would do this. Entry level contracts are just too valuable. Especially in Cozens case, who look to be a very good young player.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by TOfan

right about what?

It is interesting, though, that you reference JG for Cozens and a RHS D. I was advocating for the exact same trade.

I also had the opportunity to talk to an NHL scout and floated this by him. He said he didn't think Buffalo would do this. Entry level contracts are just too valuable. Especially in Cozens case, who look to be a very good young player.

Right about breaking up the forward core. Right about JG not figuring it out in the playoffs.

As for the trade, who knows. I wouldn’t do the trade if I were BUF, but I think they might have. Most here thought it should be Cozens + Reinhardt/1st - which I think is insane.

BUF ended up acquiring Simmonds (inexplicably) and tried to make some big moves in the off season. Maybe we add Monny or Bennett or Rittich or an LD and they add other pieces. Each team had what the other lacked, so something was probably possible.


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[TOfan]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Right about breaking up the forward core. Right about JG not figuring it out in the playoffs.

As for the trade, who knows. I wouldn’t do the trade if I were BUF, but I think they might have. Most here thought it should be Cozens + Reinhardt/1st - which I think is insane.

BUF ended up acquiring Simmonds (inexplicably) and tried to make some big moves in the off season. Maybe we add Monny or Bennett or Rittich or an LD and they add other pieces. Each team had what the other lacked, so something was probably possible.


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okay. But I think a lot of people were 'right' about changes were needed. Fact is the pandemic, flat cap and expansion draft have made trades even more difficult than perhaps ever. I am confident in saying Treliving would have liked to have done more.

I agree with your assessment on some of the trade suggestions people were throwing out last summer. Rienhard + Cozens + 1st was a gross overvaluation of JG and his contract status. At face value, ignoring where Buffalo and Calgary are at the moment and respective contracts, I would take Rienhard for JG straight up right now.

[WCW Nitro]

Hot take: GM' s, like most goalies, have become indistinguishable in that they have some good years and some bad years and very few can be counted on for any kind of consistency. Just a few years ago a GM like Poile was considered great and Bergevin was considered dumb, look how that has flipped. Rutherford won two cups and now he is gone. Armstrong won the Cup just two years ago in STL and then fumbled the Pieterangelo situation so badly and now the team might miss the playoffs. The only route to some success seems to be get elite talent in the draft and then hope your gm has a good year somewhere down the line.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by TOfan

okay. But I think a lot of people were 'right' about changes were needed. Fact is the pandemic, flat cap and expansion draft have made trades even more difficult than perhaps ever. I am confident in saying Treliving would have liked to have done more.

I agree with your assessment on some of the trade suggestions people were throwing out last summer. Rienhard + Cozens + 1st was a gross overvaluation of JG and his contract status. At face value, ignoring where Buffalo and Calgary are at the moment and respective contracts, I would take Rienhard for JG straight up right now.

Reinhart for Johnny that would be good value...lol.
I see why you like BT now.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by TOfan

okay. But I think a lot of people were 'right' about changes were needed. Fact is the pandemic, flat cap and expansion draft have made trades even more difficult than perhaps ever. I am confident in saying Treliving would have liked to have done more.

I agree with your assessment on some of the trade suggestions people were throwing out last summer. Rienhard + Cozens + 1st was a gross overvaluation of JG and his contract status. At face value, ignoring where Buffalo and Calgary are at the moment and respective contracts, I would take Rienhard for JG straight up right now.

I think their value was close to straight up 1 year ago, too. Lots of people lost their minds over that.

I was among a tiny minority advocating it before TDL 2020. Most others wanted to give the group one more shot.

I agree COVID messed everything up. C'est la vie. A point I made last year was that waiting to deal Johnny also carried the risk of him getting hurt, perhaps making it impossible to trade him before his MNTC kicks in. I certainly didn't expect COVID, but it has had a similar effect.

[Reign of Fire]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Joining a bad, small-market Canadian team to carry out a rebuild is not an attractive prospect for a GM candidate. If he has to consult with his famously grouchy coach (a former GM himself) on the makeup of the roster, it’s an even less attractive job.

And yet the small-market Canadian team spends to the cap

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Reign of Fire

And yet the small-market Canadian team spends to the cap

Almost everyone spends to the cap unless they are early in a rebuild or have a bunch of ELCs. Small markets have to pay more for their players.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Reinhart for Johnny that would be good value...lol.
I see why you like BT now.

Player A:
35gp 13G 7EVG 24P 14EVP

Player B:
39gp 13G 6EVG 27P 13EVP

Both on dumpster fire teams.

Last year:
A: 69 - 22G 17EVG 50P 38EVP
B: 70 - 18G 12EVG 58P 40EVP


A is over 2 yrs younger and RFA (arb eligible). Yes, he plays with Eichel...but he's also not a total ghost in his own end.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Hot take: GM' s, like most goalies, have become indistinguishable in that they have some good years and some bad years and very few can be counted on for any kind of consistency. Just a few years ago a GM like Poile was considered great and Bergevin was considered dumb, look how that has flipped. Rutherford won two cups and now he is gone. Armstrong won the Cup just two years ago in STL and then fumbled the Pieterangelo situation so badly and now the team might miss the playoffs. The only route to some success seems to be get elite talent in the draft and then hope your gm has a good year somewhere down the line.

Almost everyone still thinks Poile is still great.
Almost every fan in the NHL would rather have Poile as GM than Bergevin.

Has Poile made bad moves? Yes. But I really don't think there's a serious fan in hockey who doesn't think he's an elite GM.

Similarly, John Gibson has a 90.4% and 89.8% in the past two years. Yet most would say he's an elite goalie.

You gotta look at the full picture.

Personally, I think the GM position is the most important position in the entire organization. It matters more than the coach, #1 center, goaltender, #1 defenseman.
Most things can be at least partially credited to, or blamed on, the decisions of the GM. Look at the Flames' cup win. Fletcher deserves more credit than anyone. He built an elite team. And the team fell apart soon after he left.
If there's one position that deserves the salary, this is it.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Player A:
35gp 13G 7EVG 24P 14EVP

Player B:
39gp 13G 6EVG 27P 13EVP

Both on dumpster fire teams.

Last year:
A: 69 - 22G 17EVG 50P 38EVP
B: 70 - 18G 12EVG 58P 40EVP


A is over 2 yrs younger and RFA (arb eligible). Yes, he plays with Eichel...but he's also not a total ghost in his own end.

Sam Reinhart
2016 42 points -8
2017 47 points -11
2018 50 points -24
2019 65 points -10
2020 50 points -15
2021 24 points -21
GP 435 279 points -89.
Zero Playoff games played.
Not a ghost in his own end????

Johnny Gaudreau
GP 503 472 points +16.
Johnny playing like he wants to be traded but you want this as a return.
We can do way better.

[soulchoice]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Almost everyone spends to the cap unless they are early in a rebuild or have a bunch of ELCs. Small markets have to pay more for their players.

Being a small/undesirable market; Destinations like Calgary, Edmonton, and Ottawa will most certainly be on a no trade list for any player with that option, thus presenting challenges for trade deals. Furthermore, as you mentioned, they will generally have to pay their own players more too. Hence, the importance of drafting and ELCs.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Sam Reinhart
2016 42 points -8
2017 47 points -11
2018 50 points -24
2019 65 points -10
2020 50 points -15
2021 24 points -21
GP 435 279 points -89.
Zero Playoff games played.
Not a ghost in his own end????

Johnny Gaudreau
GP 503 472 points +16.
Johnny playing like he wants to be traded but you want this as a return.
We can do way better.

Never said it's the trade I wanted to make. Just that it's [sadly] fair value.

player age, trajectory, and contract terms matter. Him being on a dumpster fire team is notable, but he's just 1 of 20.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Bonded

...Poirier - 22nd Best player after him was Burakovsky

I wanted also to point out that heading into the Draft and then in his Draft+1 and Draft+2 years Poirier looked fantastic. It is tragic that his own metal health issues got in the way of his hockey career, and these are the sorts of things that are often hard to predict. It was a very good pick at the time it was made.

[soulchoice]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I wanted also to point out that heading into the Draft and then in his Draft+1 and Draft+2 years Poirier looked fantastic. It is tragic that his own metal health issues got in the way of his hockey career, and these are the sorts of things that are often hard to predict. It was a very good pick at the time it was made.

I had high hopes for him as well. Yes, the Q is inflated for stats, but he was a player with some offensive skill, to go along with speed/grit too. It’s a shame he didn’t pan out.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Never said it's the trade I wanted to make. Just that it's [sadly] fair value.

player age, trajectory, and contract terms matter. Him being on a dumpster fire team is notable, but he's just 1 of 20.

Johnny's value is definitely going down.
I think he cannot wait to leave.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Almost everyone still thinks Poile is still great.
Almost every fan in the NHL would rather have Poile as GM than Bergevin.

Has Poile made bad moves? Yes. But I really don't think there's a serious fan in hockey who doesn't think he's an elite GM.

Similarly, John Gibson has a 90.4% and 89.8% in the past two years. Yet most would say he's an elite goalie.

You gotta look at the full picture.

Personally, I think the GM position is the most important position in the entire organization. It matters more than the coach, #1 center, goaltender, #1 defenseman.
Most things can be at least partially credited to, or blamed on, the decisions of the GM. Look at the Flames' cup win. Fletcher deserves more credit than anyone. He built an elite team. And the team fell apart soon after he left.
If there's one position that deserves the salary, this is it.

Why would anyone consider Poile an elite gm, epsecially now? Never won a Cup, has lost all his recent big trades (big win in the Forsberg trade being the exception), and his recent big money signings like Duchene and Turris have been busts.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Why would anyone consider Poile an elite gm, epsecially now? Never won a Cup, has lost all his recent big trades (big win in the Forsberg trade being the exception), and his recent big money signings like Duchene and Turris have been busts.

He is the one guy who has found a glut of Giordanos


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[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Why would anyone consider Poile an elite gm, epsecially now? Never won a Cup, has lost all his recent big trades (big win in the Forsberg trade being the exception), and his recent big money signings like Duchene and Turris have been busts.

Found this neat stat on Poile:

“On March 1, 2018, David Poile became the most successful general manager in NHL history, as the Nashville Predators defeated the Edmonton Oilers 4-2, giving him his 1,320th win as a general manager, surpassing Glen Sather who had won 1,319 games.“