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Old 05-23-2019, 02:26 PM   #261
White Out 403
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I've changed my mind on this topic before and some posters here and elsewhere (reddit, talking heads on TV, friends in chatgroups) have swayed me back to a place where I find myself supporting unrestricted abortion again.

While I find gender selection abortion disgusting, and abortion as a birth control method immoral and reprehensible.... the harm done in enforcing a ban on these is too great. In the end we have to trust women and their doctors to make the right decision and not be deplorable human beings.

No easy solution exists but Canadian law seems to cause the least harm.
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Old 05-23-2019, 02:26 PM   #262
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So you've ignored the 4 posts I made previous to that?
I've read every post in this thread. I'm not sure what point you think you have made that I should be addressing here. The affects of pregnancy on women has been brought up multiple times. My view is that the sacrifice a woman goes through while pregnant is great, but necessary because the right to life is the most important human right. I said as much myself earlier in this thread:

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I am against the death penalty, so in cases such as this, I believe that the rapist should spend the rest of his life in prison. At the same time, I believe that an unborn baby is a human being that is entitled to rights and protections and that does not change regardless of how it was conceived. I do not say this lightly, as I understand that bearing a child, even under the most ideal and consensual circumstances, is an incredible sacrifice that a woman is making. In instances of rape, I can only imagine what it is like. Having said that, I do believe that the right to life is the most important right and cannot be invalidated because of rape.
So I am not sure why exactly you think you are bringing some sort of unique angle to this discussion.

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Most anti-abortion sentiment stems from concern for a fetus, and the mothers concern is discarded.
According to who?

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Is this a real question? Yes. Obviously.
Was it unconscionable during WWII, even if it would have meant the allies losing?
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Old 05-23-2019, 02:38 PM   #263
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I think you significantly overestimate the level of empathy in the general population.

Sacrificing your time, body and life is hard, posting anti-Abortion memes on Facebook and voting in regressives is easy.
Given that we can't even convince Americans to pay slightly higher taxes so that pregnant women can have access to healthcare, I'd guess most of these people aren't willing to sacrifice to keep a baby alive. They like the idea in theory but they don't actually walk that talk.
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Old 05-23-2019, 03:00 PM   #264
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According to who?
You literally just hand-waved the suffering of pregnancy. Who indeed.

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Was it unconscionable during WWII, even if it would have meant the allies losing?
Is WWII literally the last valid example you can think of? This is like the opposite of Godwinning an argument.
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Old 05-23-2019, 03:13 PM   #265
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AFAIK, the only women in this thread are wittynickname, peanut and girlysports. My sister lives in Washington DC and she is part of an online group/board of women professionals (lawyers, nurses, accountants, etc), and the majority of the women there are pro-choice.
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Old 05-23-2019, 05:03 PM   #266
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AFAIK, the only women in this thread are wittynickname, peanut and girlysports. My sister lives in Washington DC and she is part of an online group/board of women professionals (lawyers, nurses, accountants, etc), and the majority of the women there are pro-choice.
I've mostly peeked into the thread but otherwise stayed quiet. Because you aren't going to convince someone to change their mind in a thread on the internet. Until we as Americans can agree that healthcare is a right, until we as Americans can agree that $7.25 is not a livable minimum wage, until we as Americans can agree that it's worth a few extra dollars in taxes every year to ensure that children in poverty can eat, that children deserve an education, until we can do something about the fact that children in Flint are still being poisoned with lead--every other argument in here is a non-starter for me.

We as Americans don't treat living humans with the care that these people want to treat zygotes, and until conservatives start treating actual existing humans with the respect they have for fetuses, I just don't have much to say about their arguments.

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Old 05-24-2019, 09:06 AM   #267
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The full statement of Ursula K. Le Guin: many tweets in a row:

“They asked me to tell you what it was like to be twenty and pregnant in 1950
and when you tell your boyfriend you’re pregnant,
he tells you about a friend of his in the army whose girl told him she was pregnant,

..."We all #####ed her, so who knows who the father is?”
And he laughs at the good joke….

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...042360832.html

What was it like,
if you were planning to go to graduate school and get a degree and earn a living so you could support yourself and do the work you loved— what it was like to be a senior at Radcliffe and pregnant and if you bore this child,
this child which the law demanded you bear and would then call “unlawful,” “illegitimate,”
this child whose father denied it …
What was it like? […]

It’s like this:

...if I had dropped out of college,
thrown away my education,
depended on my parents …
if I had done all that,
which is what the anti-abortion people want me to have done,
I would have borne a child for them, …
the authorities,
the theorists,
the fundamentalists;

I would have born a child for them,
their child.

But I would not have born my own first child,
or second child,
or third child.
My children.

The life of that fetus would have prevented,
would have aborted,
three other fetuses …
the three wanted children,

the three I had with my husband—
whom, if I had not aborted the unwanted one,
I would never have met …
I would have been an “unwed mother” of a three-year-old in California,
without work,
with half an education,
living off her parents….

But it is the children I have to come back to,
my children
Elisabeth,
Caroline,
Theodore,
my joy,
my pride,
my loves.
If I had not broken the law and aborted that life nobody wanted,
they would have been aborted by a cruel, bigoted, and senseless law.

They would never have been born.
This thought I cannot bear.

What was it like, in the Dark Ages when abortion was a crime, for the girl whose dad couldn’t borrow cash, as my dad could?

What was it like for the girl who couldn’t even tell her dad, because he would go crazy with shame and rage?
Who couldn’t tell her mother?
Who had to go alone to that filthy room and put herself body and soul into the hands of a professional criminal? –

because that is what every doctor who did an abortion was, whether he was an extortionist or an idealist.

You know what it was like for her.
You know and I know;
that is why we are here.
We are not going back to the Dark Ages.

We are not going to let anybody in this country have that kind of power over any girl or woman.
There are great powers, outside the government and in it, trying to legislate the return of darkness.
We are not great powers.
But we are the light.
Nobody can put us out.

May all of you shine very bright and steady, today and always.”
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Old 05-24-2019, 12:12 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Out 403 View Post
I've changed my mind on this topic before and some posters here and elsewhere (reddit, talking heads on TV, friends in chatgroups) have swayed me back to a place where I find myself supporting unrestricted abortion again.

While I find gender selection abortion disgusting, and abortion as a birth control method immoral and reprehensible.... the harm done in enforcing a ban on these is too great. In the end we have to trust women and their doctors to make the right decision and not be deplorable human beings.

No easy solution exists but Canadian law seems to cause the least harm.
I just want to give you props for this post. I know you get the gears a lot on this forum (rightly so, in cases) but it takes a mature and aware person to be open to having their mind changed on a topic like this and share it with us. Kudos to you.
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