Hong Kong Activist Joshua Wong quits and other China news

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

The modern day Chinese Communist Party is the closest thing we have ever seen to the Nazis

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read on here.

[81MC]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Tell me about the average middle class Canadian who didn't take to the streets and focused on things in their own life while the residential school system was going on. What does it say about them that they even had the vote that could have been used to change that system?

Do you think it's coincidental that the murder of George Floyd erupts in nationwide protests in the US at a time when there is massive unemployment, a pandemic, businesses shutting down and an general sense of getting left behind among the middle class? Would the same protests be erupting over racial injustices if main street was doing great and people were all busy with work?

Do your neighbors step outside each day and think about how the land where they live is theirs now as a result of the genocide of tens of millions of indigenous people, with survivors who actually were pushed into spaces that keep them out of sight and who still face discrimination? Do they spend each day fighting to correct this, or do they spend each day trying to improve the lives of their own family?

Do you think average people in China are just people trying to deal with paying mortgages, raising their kids well, saving for retirement and having social and family life, like your neighbors are, or are they immoral monsters?

I think many Canadians are very aware of the atrocities of the past, yes. I don’t wish to get into a debate regarding the current state of indigenous affairs in Canada, but I wholeheartedly would disagree with the assertion that middle-class Canadians continue to ignore genocidal acts.

The last residential school closed in 1996? You’d have to be what, 42+, to have had any say in the matter back then?

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

People for the most part just didn't know about the residential school issue I would assume. I had no idea about it until all the facts started coming out in the last 5-10 years.

But the major turning point in all of this is videos of these things happening. People are willing to give the police/government the benefit of the doubt on the facts they give them. But when they can see it for themselves - opinions change.

Some people obviously knew. People in government administering the program knew. People who suffered from it knew. Journalists digging into it would have or could have known and could have blown the issue open if there was interest and they had editorial support. It could have been included in school textbooks along with other realities of discrimination in Canada. It could have been discussed on the evening news. But, it wasn't.

The severity of problems wasn't part of the common consciousness or the cultural zeitgeist of the time, so the average middle-class, white Canadian was wrapped up in thinking about other issues in their life. Had someone at that time shared the info and railed against the moral injustice of crimes done by Canadian government and society to indigenous families, they would have faced a lot of push back from people who wouldn't have accepted a telling of the story of Canadian life contrasting so starkly with their believed-in story of Canadian life and society.

If social justice work was as simple as just showing people the facts and them immediately changing their views, it would be easy. But it's clearly not. That's not what happens.

I don't think the average Canadian was a terrible person for getting on with life in front of their noses while believing in the happy multicultural story told of Canadian life as they understood it to be. I don't think the average Chinese is a terrible person for doing so now either.

Posts like the one by 81MC earlier in this thread are nasty, and ideas like the one he shared are the sort of thing that are contributing to the rise in anti-Asian hate crimes in Canada now. Same thing for Cali's ignorant equivalence drawn between China and the communist Soviet Union, or Ducay's ignorant claim that life in China is hell for anyone who isn't Han. The irony of claiming moral superiority over hundreds of millions of regular people while making ignorant and harmful assertions about them and their lives appears to be lost on them. Still, I'm not going to jump to thinking these fellow posters are bad people. I just think they're people that don't know better, because the things they have heard that formed their beliefs don't reflect the full reality.

[FlameOn]

China issues travel advisory for Canada tells it's citizens to exercise caution and that they can be subject to "frequent violent actions" in the country

https://globalnews.ca/news/7142057/c...rcise-caution/

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

China issues travel advisory for Canada tells it's citizens to exercise caution and that they can be subject to "frequent violent actions" in the country

https://globalnews.ca/news/7142057/c...rcise-caution/

LOL. Classic.

[nik-]

Canada issues travel advisory because its citizens can be subject to imprisonment for political retribution

[SebC]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Do you realize I'm not advocating for the system? I'm just describing it.

It would seem to me that the system as described is critically flawed, and that you omitted that flaw from your description. But, my questions were not rhetorical. I do believe you would have better answers than I would.

[81MC]

Hey now Johnny, I was responding to the assertion that an abundance of middle-class wealth and consumerism allowed for a corrupt, dictatorial government to continue well documented human rights violations as if that were true. There’s no way I accept that 50 flavours of cola and fancy phones makes Chinese citizens complicit in the governments crimes.

When you have a reported conviction rate of 99.9 percent, speaking out is against the law, and the government censored media, I can understand why most citizens would just let it be.

Now, if it were the case that the very post I was responding to were true, where millions of people were apathetic towards their nations human rights violations because they could shop to their hearts content somehow, I certainly feel like that would be the kind of thing that couldn’t be excused. Not sure how that could be considered hateful or harming?

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

What on earth are you talking about? China is not the Soviet Union. There are many valid criticisms of Chinese government, but to say modern China is just communism like the Soviet Union is just uninformed.

Sure, and a McIntosh apple is _totally_ different from a Gala apple. But... they're certainly both still apples. China is unabashedly Communist and authoritarian, and moving further to totalitarianism. But yes... no two things are the same. To draw similarities between the two is not 'just uninformed'. Its comparative political science.

[Bankai]

Reading everyone's posts on this topic I would like to cast a light from my own experiences.

I have lived in Canada since I was 2 years old and identify completely as a Canadian with a Korean heritage. I love this country as it is my home and would never change this fact.

My wife is from China and she came here as an international student in her first year of University. The perspective of the average middle class Chinese person is far different from how people perceive things from a Canadian perspective.

I would venture to guess that the average middle class Chinese person has seen such an improvement in quality of life that they don't see any negative repercussions from their style of government. My wife's mother was making 800RMB per month in the early 90s, yet has now retired with sending her child overseas for studies at a cost of $30k CAD per year.

For such a homogeneous culture of Han Chinese, the majority do not understand what benefit there is in protests such as BLM. We in Canada are so fortunate we can voice out opinions on all matters. For the middle class Han Chinese, I don't think they care so much about such a benefit of our democracy.

Whereas in the past the difference in QOL was so great from that country to ours, it may not exist anymore.

I laugh at the notion that they are like the USSR vs WEST in the past. Having visited numerous times, their QOL is not much different.

[boogerz]

Originally Posted by rubecube

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read on here.

How is it dumb? There are enough similarities between Xi's China to Wehrmacht-era Germany to make it a credible modern comparable. Some of the similarities to Wehrmacht-era Germany:

- Economic growth driven by mass industrial privatization/capitalism
- Use of that economic growth to bring mass employment, take a large portion of the population out of poverty, and build political support (e.g. China's urbanization and growing middle class)
- Emphasis on building military power (e.g. large military, man-made islands in the Pacific, frequent border skirmishes/agitation with neighboring nations, rapidly increasing naval capacity)
- Use of mass propaganda (e.g. Chinese state controlled media) to suppress thought and root out dissent (e.g. the Hong Kong situation, social credit system, and detainment of authors/scientists/politicians/activists that speak out against the government)
- Promotion of ethnic homogeneity and Han racial superiority (e.g. using African countries for even cheaper labour and resources, Uighur “re-education camps, and a general culture of xenophobia against non-Chinese people of all ethnicities)

Germany didn't invade Poland until 1939, about 10 years after Hitler started to solidify his following before seizing power in the early 30s. At the start of WWII, Germany was said to be at a similar point as China is now, where the rapid economic growth was starting to slow (thereby putting a risk to the tower of cards that Hitler built).

Xi took power in 2013 and in 2019 solidified the position as his for the foreseeable future. If we're already seeing strong parallels to pre-WWII Germany seven years in, what will the decade look like? Is the invasion of Taiwan in a few years the straw that breaks the camel’s back?

When you look at mid-30s western media about concentration camps (e.g. actual newspaper articles from US and UK media outlets at the time), it's actually quite similar to modern reporting on the current Uighur situation.

No one is saying that this ends in an all-out war like WWII did, but to an outsider looking in, comparing China to pre-WWII Germany is not dumb in at all.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Bankai

Reading everyone's posts on this topic I would like to cast a light from my own experiences.

I have lived in Canada since I was 2 years old and identify completely as a Canadian with a Korean heritage. I love this country as it is my home and would never change this fact.

My wife is from China and she came here as an international student in her first year of University. The perspective of the average middle class Chinese person is far different from how people perceive things from a Canadian perspective.

I would venture to guess that the average middle class Chinese person has seen such an improvement in quality of life that they don't see any negative repercussions from their style of government. My wife's mother was making 800RMB per month in the early 90s, yet has now retired with sending her child overseas for studies at a cost of $30k CAD per year.

For such a homogeneous culture of Han Chinese, the majority do not understand what benefit there is in protests such as BLM. We in Canada are so fortunate we can voice out opinions on all matters. For the middle class Han Chinese, I don't think they care so much about such a benefit of our democracy.

Whereas in the past the difference in QOL was so great from that country to ours, it may not exist anymore.

I laugh at the notion that they are like the USSR vs WEST in the past. Having visited numerous times, their QOL is not much different.

I agree with this, but I would also say that the idea is ingrained in them that its not worth it from a young age. The closest comparison I can think of from a Western perspective is people who grow up in extremely religious households. Its driven in your head that the church is right and the other side is sinners, so you believe it. You'll excuse all kinds of terrible behaviour (child abuse, financial crimes, voting for a guy like Trump) to support your view because it's so indoctrinated in you.

But I find it hard to believe there won't be an awakening in the Chinese population at some point. The CCP is trying their best to avoid it from occurring by making it basically criminal to speak out against them.

[GirlySports]

To expand on my economic improvement theory from above, I think what will break the Chinese people is the race to be successful and how expensive it is. It's starts with the one-child policy. If you have one child, you're going to pour all your resources into that one child. From Bankai's story above, I'm guessing his wife is an only child and his mother-in-law pour every dollar to allow his wife to study abroad, at triple the tuition.When China relaxed the one-child policy a couple of years ago, the first cry was, thanks but no one can afford a second kid!



Education is valued so highly it's a race to get to the top. Even if you don't agree with this method, you still get caught in it. If your child is 6 and half his/her class are hiring tutors, you're going to have to hire a tutor. If they give teachers presents, you have to give teachers presents.

To give or not to give? Chinese parents struggle with Teacher’s Day gift etiquette

If you're in a small town, each year your town may only be allocated one or two admissions to the best city university, and the kids in the city, have their own race to win the seats to to study abroad. So there's a race for everything and pressure on the kids that I think in the long run will collapse the system. I mean you thought the college degree market was saturated in the US, only 40% of Americans graduate with a 4-year degree. In China it's 90%!
The Problem With Chinese Universities? Not Enough Dropouts

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

To expand on my economic improvement theory from above, I think what will break the Chinese people is the race to be successful and how expensive it is. It's starts with the one-child policy. If you have one child, you're going to pour all your resources into that one child. From Bankai's story above, I'm guessing his wife is an only child and his mother-in-law pour every dollar to allow his wife to study abroad, at triple the tuition.When China relaxed the one-child policy a couple of years ago, the first cry was, thanks but no one can afford a second kid!

I think what you are getting at is the Little Emperor Syndrome where a generation of only children created a culture of over indulgence of that one child to the point that second children can't compete as the bar has been set so high. All the resources have to be poured into one child to make them competitive.

You see it to a degree in the West as well. In families that have multiple children, you often see the younger children get fewer family resources handed down. The younger children get more freedom but less discipline and financial assistance. If one child excels at something, the family focuses efforts more on that one child's success. It's probably more just the nature of capitalism and a big reason that birth rates in Western nations are so low despite not having a policy on it.

[FlameOn]

Axios takes a look at the national security law that China passed. Basically it outlaws all criticism of the CCP at home or abroad to citizens and non-citizens alike. So... according to the article 38, everyone critical of the CCP on this forum is a criminal.

What's happening: Article 38 of the national security law states, "This Law shall apply to offences under this Law committed against the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region from outside the Region by a person who is not a permanent resident of the Region."

• In other words, every provision of the law applies to everyone outside of Hong Kong — including you.

Several experts in Chinese and international law confirmed this interpretation of the law to Axios.

• "It literally applies to every single person on the planet. This is how it reads," said Wang Minyao, a Chinese-American lawyer based in New York. "If I appear at a congressional committee in D.C. and say something critical, that literally would be a violation of this law."
  
• This means that anyone advocating democracy in Hong Kong, or criticizing the governments in Hong Kong or Beijing, could potentially face consequences if they step foot in Hong Kong, or have assets or family members in Hong Kong.

What they're saying: "One of the main purposes of having the national security law is to quash the international front of the movement," said Nathan Law, a Hong Kong pro-democracy lawmaker, who spoke to Axios after he fled the city last week.

"For Hong Kong, we have to understand that it is the foreground of a very global fight, authoritarianism versus democracy."
He and other leaders of the pro-democracy movement, including Joshua Wong, have traveled the globe in recent years to promote their cause, including meeting with U.S. lawmakers — an activity that the new law prohibits.
The big picture: This marks a historically unprecedented expansion of extraterritoriality — the application of a country's domestic laws abroad.

• U.S. counterterrorism laws have a degree of extraterritoriality, but those laws are intended to fight actual violent terrorism — not free speech — and are not used to crush peaceful political organizing.

The new law codifies and extends to non-Chinese nationals the extraterritorial practices that the Chinese Communist Party has long applied to its own citizens abroad.

https://www.axios.com/china-hong-kon...5bea3f78f.html

[81MC]

...so just to be clear:
The CCP is a terrible authoritarian government that needs to stop their human rights violations and arbitrary, politically motivated detentions.

Now I've committed a 'criminal' act and could expect to be detained if I enter that nation? Lol

[GirlySports]

Yes we all are. So never go to China, simple.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by 81MC

...so just to be clear:
The CCP is a terrible authoritarian government that needs to stop their human rights violations and arbitrary, politically motivated detentions.

Now I've committed a 'criminal' act and could expect to be detained if I enter that nation? Lol

Worse... you are subject to life imprisonment. It also gives the Chinese government the right to wiretap you and if you step foot in HK, the right to extradite you to China for trial.

The new law's key provisions include that:

• Crimes of secession, subversion, terrorism and collusion with foreign forces are punishable by a maximum sentence of life in prison
• Damaging public transport facilities can be considered terrorism
• Those found guilty will not be allowed to stand for public office
• Companies can be fined if convicted under the law
• Beijing will establish a new security office in Hong Kong, with its own law enforcement personnel - neither of which would come under the local authority's jurisdiction
• This office can send some cases to be tried in mainland China - but Beijing has said it will only have that power over a "tiny number" of cases
• In addition, Hong Kong will have to establish its own national security commission to enforce the laws, with a Beijing-appointed adviser
• Hong Kong's chief executive will have the power to appoint judges to hear national security cases, raising fears about judicial autonomy
• Importantly, Beijing will have power over how the law should be interpreted, not any Hong Kong judicial or policy body. If the law conflicts with any Hong Kong law, the Beijing law takes priority
• Some trials will be heard behind closed doors.
• People suspected of breaking the law can be wire-tapped and put under surveillance
• Management of foreign non-governmental organisations and news agencies will be strengthened
• The law will also apply to non-permanent residents and people "from outside [Hong Kong]... who are not permanent residents of Hong Kong".

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52765838

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Yes we all are. So never go to China, simple.

Or Hong Kong for that matter as you can face extradition direct to China through their new secret police force.

[Fuzz]

I will never go to China again. Not a chance.