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View Poll Results: Thoughts on the James Neal signing?
Love It 411 46.55%
Love the add, worried about the term 328 37.15%
Neutral 30 3.40%
Wait and see 71 8.04%
Hate it 43 4.87%
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:26 PM   #681
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Originally Posted by topfiverecords View Post
Swap Lazar with Dube
Swap Brouwer with Czarnik
Swap Brouwer with Lazar
Swap Brouwer with Hathaway
Swap Brouwer with Mangiapane
Swap Brouwer with Quine
Swap Brouwer with Klimchuk
Swap Brouwer with Harvey
Swap Brouwer for donuts.

Now you’ve got it.
I know i am in the minority here but I like Lazar and still have hope for him with a new system
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:37 PM   #682
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I know i am in the minority here but I like Lazar and still have hope for him with a new system
But the Flames did not sign Czarnik as a UFA to a two year deal in order to sit in the press box or to play in the AHL.
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:44 PM   #683
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But the Flames did not sign Czarnik as a UFA to a two year deal in order to sit in the press box or to play in theAHL.
Sure let them compete then, who ever plays better gets more time. Brouwer can sit for me
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Old 07-18-2018, 11:42 PM   #684
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Never given, always earned. Amiright?

Bennett should be on the third line with Backlund and Frolik. This is where he had the most success in his career to date, and should try and find his game on that two way line. The second line should be Tkachuk-Jankowski-Neal. To me, both Tkachuk and Jankowski earned that opportunity, and playing with Neal gives them a bonified veteran finisher to work with. Give these two young guys, who have exceeded expectations, a chance for bigger and better things. Give Bennett, a player who has grossly underachieved, an opportunity to find his game where he had some past success, and where there will be less pressure for him to produce.
Why does Janko deserve an opportunity over Bennett?

Bennett's numbers and analytics were just as good, if not better than Janko's last season
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Old 07-18-2018, 11:55 PM   #685
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I think Foo makes the team ahead of Hathaway, Lazar and Brouwer
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:48 AM   #686
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The lines I’d like to see are

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Tkachuk - Backlund - Neal
Bennett - Jankowski - Frolik
Foo - Ryan - Czarnik
Brouwer

Neal and Lindholm are interchangeable.
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Old 07-19-2018, 02:54 AM   #687
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Originally Posted by N-E-B View Post
The lines I’d like to see are

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Tkachuk - Backlund - Neal
Bennett - Jankowski - Frolik
Foo - Ryan - Czarnik
Brouwer

Neal and Lindholm are interchangeable.
I’m starting to really think that Bennett, Jankowski and Czarnik are our 3B line who get ice time when they are on their game.

Line 1: Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Line 2: Tkachuk - Backlund - Neal
Like 3A: Frolik - Ryan - Brouwer
Line 3B: Bennett - Jankowski - Czarnik
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Old 07-19-2018, 07:02 AM   #688
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Why does Janko deserve an opportunity over Bennett?

Bennett's numbers and analytics were just as good, if not better than Janko's last season
Keep studying those spreadsheets and don’t watch the actual game on the ice. Bennett was horrible last season and got a lot of opportunity to produce, and did nothing. His defensive play sucked and he hurt every line he was on. He took stupid penalty after stupid penalty, and plays died on his stick as he refused to use his line mates. Bennett did SFA in a positive way last year. He was the biggest disappointment on the hockey club, and by a large margin, and that includes TJ Brodie’s mess of a season.

Jankowski showed a lot more. He was better defensively and played the tougher position. Jankowski actually showed he could use his line mates to his and their advantage. The team would have been in a much better position had they given him some talent to work with other than Bennett, Brouwer and Hathaway. Jankowski showed a lot of promise, did a lot of good things last season, and was one of the actual highlights of a pretty depressing season. Jankowski was way better than Bennett, and it wasn’t really even close.

Jankowski and Bennett were headed in different directions last year, but if you only look at a spreadsheet you wouldn’t be able to see that.
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Old 07-19-2018, 07:21 AM   #689
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Question: Why is Backlund always penciled in at the number two slot?

I really don’t understand the logic behind it as the second line should be about generating offense. I see Backlund as a great third line center playing in a shutdown down role and chipping in 30-35 points a season from that position. On the second line, I see him holding players back more than making them better. He isn’t a great distributor of the puck and he isn’t overly creative. He hustles and plays a great north-south game, but he isn’t a classic scoring center. I could see a possible Selke candidate, but only if he was relied upon to focus on the defensive side of the puck and allow the offense to come on its own. I see him more of a square peg on the 2nd line.

I think the 2nd line center role is ultimately more about Tkachuk than it is about anything. If Tkachuk gets saddled with a north-south center he’s going to top out as a 50 point player. Get him a guy that can create open ice and make some plays, and Tkachuk is going to thrive and become a big time scorer. I don’t think Backlund is a good fit there.
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:21 AM   #690
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Question: Why is Backlund always penciled in at the number two slot?

I really don’t understand the logic behind it as the second line should be about generating offense. I see Backlund as a great third line center playing in a shutdown down role and chipping in 30-35 points a season from that position. On the second line, I see him holding players back more than making them better. He isn’t a great distributor of the puck and he isn’t overly creative. He hustles and plays a great north-south game, but he isn’t a classic scoring center. I could see a possible Selke candidate, but only if he was relied upon to focus on the defensive side of the puck and allow the offense to come on its own. I see him more of a square peg on the 2nd line.

I think the 2nd line center role is ultimately more about Tkachuk than it is about anything. If Tkachuk gets saddled with a north-south center he’s going to top out as a 50 point player. Get him a guy that can create open ice and make some plays, and Tkachuk is going to thrive and become a big time scorer. I don’t think Backlund is a good fit there.
I think until a guy like Jankowski shows he can step up and provide more offense than Backlund in a 2nd line role, you will continue to see him slotted in as the second line center on many depth charts.

You see Backlund as an elite shut down player that is best served on the 3rd line and while I agree that he is an elite shut down guy, he is also the best offensive 2nd line center right now. He's a 45-50 pt guy that drives his line and makes others around him better including Tkachuk. To me what holds that line back from producing more is Frolik not Backlund.
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:45 AM   #691
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Originally Posted by New Era View Post
Question: Why is Backlund always penciled in at the number two slot?

I really don’t understand the logic behind it as the second line should be about generating offense. I see Backlund as a great third line center playing in a shutdown down role and chipping in 30-35 points a season from that position. On the second line, I see him holding players back more than making them better. He isn’t a great distributor of the puck and he isn’t overly creative. He hustles and plays a great north-south game, but he isn’t a classic scoring center. I could see a possible Selke candidate, but only if he was relied upon to focus on the defensive side of the puck and allow the offense to come on its own. I see him more of a square peg on the 2nd line.

I think the 2nd line center role is ultimately more about Tkachuk than it is about anything. If Tkachuk gets saddled with a north-south center he’s going to top out as a 50 point player. Get him a guy that can create open ice and make some plays, and Tkachuk is going to thrive and become a big time scorer. I don’t think Backlund is a good fit there.
I appreciate that Backlund is a polarizing player - not usually flashy, and to a degree because of the role that he plays - but I disagree with much of this take.

Your characterization of line responsibilities seems antiquated. Lines don't tend to have singular responsibilities anymore. The second line isn't just responsible for creating offense. You need someone in your top 6, ideally, who is capable of limiting chances against and will typically outscore the opposition at 5 on 5 in a PVP scenario. Monahan/Gaudreau aren't great at this, as they score a lot in aggregate, but struggle to limit chances and goals against, especially against the top offensive lines in the league.

Backlund's line, on the other hand, can get buried with D-zone starts and handle those heavy minutes while still creating offense and usually - the last 20 games of last season notwithstanding - outscore the opposition. No one else on the team can do what Backlund does despite circumstances. Kind of tough to say he's "holding people back" in that role when ultimately, you win games by scoring more than the bad guys. I would also disagree that he isn't a good distributor. The eye test should speak for itself, but 3M has consistently been a top line in xGF% and high danger scoring chances. The problem last year was turning chances into goals.

As for your Tkachuk comments: I understand people love big numbers, but Tkachuck is the type of excellent two-way player who, especially when paired with another excellent two-way forward, can play tough minutes at even strength against anyone and still put up numbers 5 on 5. Keep in mind that he wasn't used on the top PP until December last season and was still on pace for ~60 points. With some natural progression and better special teams utilization, he could presumably put up 60-70 points next season in basically the same role he had after the new year. Plus, his nose for the net and creativity elevates the Backlund line offensively at even strength while still allowing them to do the things they are good at. However, Frolik for all his hard work and defensive acumen is an even worse finisher than Backlund and a significantly inferior distributor than he or Tkachuk. Keeping Backlund/Tkachuk together, knowing they can play against anyone, but adding Neal, for example, a proven finisher, will help that line with the one thing they didn't do well/were unlucky at last year: putting pucks in the net.

Finally, a Selke cadidate with ~35 points? Should probably take a look at the offensive numbers of guys who tend to place high in the voting. The 35 point defense-first forward gets little to no love, for right or wrong.
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Old 07-19-2018, 09:43 AM   #692
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But the Flames did not sign Czarnik as a UFA to a two year deal in order to sit in the press box or to play in the AHL.
If Czarnik starts with the club out of camp, he's going to stick for sure - he's waiver eligible, and was sought during the off season. I assume he doesn't need waivers to be assigned to Stockton before the season starts.
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Old 07-19-2018, 10:32 AM   #693
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If Czarnik starts with the club out of camp, he's going to stick for sure - he's waiver eligible, and was sought during the off season. I assume he doesn't need waivers to be assigned to Stockton before the season starts.
He will need to clear waivers. I would bet on him being on the big roster. You're right that you don't sign a guy just to waive him.

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Old 07-19-2018, 10:34 AM   #694
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...I think the 2nd line center role is ultimately more about Tkachuk than it is about anything. If Tkachuk gets saddled with a north-south center he’s going to top out as a 50 point player. Get him a guy that can create open ice and make some plays, and Tkachuk is going to thrive and become a big time scorer. I don’t think Backlund is a good fit there.
I think your are badly under-selling Backlund’s offensive game. Tkachuk was on pace for 30 goals and 60 points in his 19-year-old season while playing primarily with Backlund.
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Old 07-19-2018, 10:53 AM   #695
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I think your are badly under-selling Backlund’s offensive game. Tkachuk was on pace for 30 goals and 60 points in his 19-year-old season while playing primarily with Backlund.
I think he can do way better than that playing with a center with better offensive instincts and ability to make better passes. This is the year that Tkachuk should really take off, and I don't see it happening with Backlund as his center. Backlund just doesn't have the offensive instincts to take Tkachuk to the next level.
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Old 07-19-2018, 10:59 AM   #696
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I think he can do way better than that playing with a center with better offensive instincts and ability to make better passes...
Well, sure. But you said he would be limited to being a 50-point player after he has already shown that he is much better than that now, with Backlund.

I honestly believe that Tkachuk is good enough that it doesn’t matter much with whom he plays. He will score 30 goals.
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Old 07-19-2018, 11:08 AM   #697
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Well, sure. But you said he would be limited to being a 50-point player after he has already shown that he is much better than that now, with Backlund.
Except he hasn't. He was projected to, but didn't get there. Suspensions and injuries happen, so until he breaks a ceiling, he isn't there yet.

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I honestly believe that Tkachuk is good enough that it doesn’t matter much with whom he plays. He will score 30 goals.
Sure, maybe he scores 30 goals and maybe gets 30 assists. Fantastic. What if you are leaving another 10-15 goals and another 30 assists on the table because he has more to his game than Backlund can tap into? Play him with a guy that can meet Tkachuk's offensive level and reap the rewards.
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Old 07-19-2018, 11:08 AM   #698
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If Backlund and Tkachuk stay together as a pair, I hope they get an offensive upgrade on Frolik... Lindholm or Neal. Maybe Czarnik.
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Old 07-19-2018, 11:42 AM   #699
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Except he hasn't. He was projected to, but didn't get there. Suspensions and injuries happen, so until he breaks a ceiling, he isn't there yet.



Sure, maybe he scores 30 goals and maybe gets 30 assists. Fantastic. What if you are leaving another 10-15 goals and another 30 assists on the table because he has more to his game than Backlund can tap into? Play him with a guy that can meet Tkachuk's offensive level and reap the rewards.
So… he isn't a 60-point player because it hasn't happened yet, but he is a 90-point player because it hasn't happened yet?

Make up your mind. Count the what-ifs or leave them out, but don't count yours and ignore everyone else's.
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Old 07-19-2018, 12:37 PM   #700
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Keep studying those spreadsheets and don’t watch the actual game on the ice. Bennett was horrible last season and got a lot of opportunity to produce, and did nothing. His defensive play sucked and he hurt every line he was on. He took stupid penalty after stupid penalty, and plays died on his stick as he refused to use his line mates. Bennett did SFA in a positive way last year. He was the biggest disappointment on the hockey club, and by a large margin, and that includes TJ Brodie’s mess of a season.

Jankowski showed a lot more. He was better defensively and played the tougher position. Jankowski actually showed he could use his line mates to his and their advantage. The team would have been in a much better position had they given him some talent to work with other than Bennett, Brouwer and Hathaway. Jankowski showed a lot of promise, did a lot of good things last season, and was one of the actual highlights of a pretty depressing season. Jankowski was way better than Bennett, and it wasn’t really even close.

Jankowski and Bennett were headed in different directions last year, but if you only look at a spreadsheet you wouldn’t be able to see that.
Sure, Bennett took more penalties, but his penalty differential was only -6 compared to Jankowski's -3.

Bennett also produced more primary assists, total assists, and points per 60 minutes as well as had a higher individual corsi for per 60, fenwick for per 60 minutes, shots for per 60 minutes, etc..

Also, Jankowski had an individual expected goals for of about 11, whereas Bennett had an individual expected goals for of 15 (by far the best on the team), which he failed to reach because of his poor finishing ability. Despite his poor finishing ability and lack of luck, the crazy amount of chances Bennett created for himself, especially compared to Jankowski, helped him only finished one goal back of Janko 5v5.

Janko had a decent rookie season and he's proven himself to be an NHL player but he hasn't proven at all that he's better than Bennett
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