Oct 12 Practice Notes: Backlund questionable. Rittich starts. 3rd D pairing may split

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Smith no question. Smith has been an above average starter. Elliott never has

How do you arrive at this? I can't find anything that supports this claim. Smith has been the epitome of meh. One good season in his career where he was all universe, then pretty much nothing of note. One year over .916 S% and a career low of 2.21 GAA, and only one trip to the post season. Elliott, as bad as he is, has posted three seasons over that .916 S% and has a career low of 1.96 GAA. Smith has the better S% by .01%, but Elliott has Smith in GAA by .24, and has taken his teams to the post season seven times, including the Flames. Both goaltenders are middle of the road puck stoppers, but looking for a edge, Elliott has it.

[Machiavelli]

Flames don't play again until Wednesday; Smith is gonna really hate not starting tomorrow.

[Monahan For Mayor]

I strongly disagree with moving Bennett to center ice. The guy looks to finally be putting it together. Moving him to center mite just over complicate it for him. Continue letting him build while he's being very effective.

[8sPOT]

Originally Posted by Machiavelli

Flames don't play again until Wednesday; Smith is gonna really hate not starting tomorrow.

Good.

[burnitdown]

Originally Posted by New Era

How do you arrive at this? I can't find anything that supports this claim. Smith has been the epitome of meh. One good season in his career where he was all universe, then pretty much nothing of note. One year over .916 S% and a career low of 2.21 GAA, and only one trip to the post season. Elliott, as bad as he is, has posted three seasons over that .916 S% and has a career low of 1.96 GAA. Smith has the better S% by .01%, but Elliott has Smith in GAA by .24, and has taken his teams to the post season seven times, including the Flames. Both goaltenders are middle of the road puck stoppers, but looking for a edge, Elliott has it.

Agreed - Smith's last above-average season was in 2011-12. Beyond that, he's pretty much been average or hurt his entire career. Elliott had way more ups and downs but he did have a few very strong years in a co-starter role. Neither should inspire confidence if they were playing on a Cup contender so to speak in absolute terms that one is a significantly better seems odd (not even factoring in age or salary, which is in Elliott's favour).

[Ryan Coke]

So New Era is trying to use stats to disprove something that seems obvious to the eye test? It’s freaky Friday.

If I’m up 4-0 halfway through a playoff game, I know who I would take to close it out.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Much easier playing them together at home when you can control their matchups. They got a healthy dose of welcome to the NHL vs STL.

No doubt. But I’m glad Peters isn’t sitting either one after a bad showing. You got to let your rookies play through their mistakes if you want them to develop.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

I don't love the Valimaki-Stone pairing, largely because I don't like saddling Valimaki with him. But I suppose someone has to do that job.

[Redrum]

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Who would you rather have right now between Elliott and Smith, can't pick neither. Lol

Meh, not really close. It's the timing and type of goals that Elliott lets in. Smith can do that a bit too but not even close to the team deflating level Elliott can reach. I think Smith also gets a bit of a break on the puck handling screw ups because of it's advantages. Although the team probably isn't all that pleased with more than one a game like yesterday.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

So New Era is trying to use stats to disprove something that seems obvious to the eye test? It’s freaky Friday.

If I’m up 4-0 halfway through a playoff game, I know who I would take to close it out.

Except its not obvious to the eye test. I have no idea where Smith got this massive reputation as some great goaltender. His stats, and his play, don't support the claim.



Here's the real funny part of getting through that playoff game. You have to get your team there to begin with, and Smith has only managed to do it ONCE in a twelve year NHL career. Hate on Elliott all you like, but he managed to backstop his team to seven playoff berths in an 11 year career. Gotta get there before you can do anything in the post-season, even if it is failing in spectacular fashion.

[Inferno]

Count me in as another who prefers Smith to Elliott even though he hasn't been good enough so far this season.

Elliott may have been in the playoffs more but switch teams and I don't think Elliott gets any of those teams in the playoffs either. I also think if Smith doesn't get hurt when he did last season the Flames make the playoffs.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by 8sPOT

Might just be me but Frolik is the forward that has stood out in a bad way. Only 4 games but it seems the play constantly dies on his stick, takes bad penalties, just hasn't seemed to be in sync with his linemates at all.

I'd take him out before anyone else.

For me he's been really bad even going back to last year, not sure but I think he lost it since taking a puck in the face.

[yourbestfriend]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I don't love the Valimaki-Stone pairing, largely because I don't like saddling Valimaki with him. But I suppose someone has to do that job.

I view it as the complete opposite. Stone has looked solid this year and he provides a safety net for Valimaki to do his thing in the O zone.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by yourbestfriend

I view it as the complete opposite. Stone has looked solid this year and he provides a safety net for Valimaki to do his thing in the O zone.

Mostly, when you play with Stone the O zone is a long ways away

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by New Era

How do you arrive at this? I can't find anything that supports this claim. Smith has been the epitome of meh. One good season in his career where he was all universe, then pretty much nothing of note. One year over .916 S% and a career low of 2.21 GAA, and only one trip to the post season. Elliott, as bad as he is, has posted three seasons over that .916 S% and has a career low of 1.96 GAA. Smith has the better S% by .01%, but Elliott has Smith in GAA by .24, and has taken his teams to the post season seven times, including the Flames. Both goaltenders are middle of the road puck stoppers, but looking for a edge, Elliott has it.

Well you’re missing the context that Smith was one of the best players on a really bad PHX/ARI team and Elliott stats are flattering because he played for some strong STL teams. Classic case of good goalie on a horrible team vs mediocre goalie on an excellent team. Makes it so straight statistical comparisons aren’t very useful. As much as some people will argue SV% is not a team stat it still is very much influenced by how a team plays. GAA is very clearly a team stat.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by New Era

How do you arrive at this? I can't find anything that supports this claim. Smith has been the epitome of meh. One good season in his career where he was all universe, then pretty much nothing of note. One year over .916 S% and a career low of 2.21 GAA, and only one trip to the post season. Elliott, as bad as he is, has posted three seasons over that .916 S% and has a career low of 1.96 GAA. Smith has the better S% by .01%, but Elliott has Smith in GAA by .24, and has taken his teams to the post season seven times, including the Flames. Both goaltenders are middle of the road puck stoppers, but looking for a edge, Elliott has it.

I don't think Smith is All-World, but the problem with your analysis is the claim that Elliott has "taken his team" to the post season 7 times. He never played more than 55 regular season games (Ottawa, .909). In Calgary he played 49 (.910) and was legitimately the reason they made it, but then crapped the bed in a most spectacular way that the stats can't do it justice.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Well you’re missing the context that Smith was one of the best players on a really bad PHX/ARI team and Elliott stats are flattering because he played for some strong STL teams.

Except he really wasn't. Smith has provided mediocre goaltending on every team he has been on. Is it surprising that every one of those teams was mediocre to bad? Is there a possible link there? Is Smith just over-rated because he was marketed well by his team? You can think what you want, but Arizona fans will tell you a different story about Mike Smith. There's no goaltender who runs hotter and colder than Mikes Smith. What you are seeing in Calgary is pure Mike Smith and the same way he played in Phoenix, Dallas and Tampa.

Classic case of good goalie on a horrible team vs mediocre goalie on an excellent team. Makes it so straight statistical comparisons aren’t very useful.

Okay, so career statistics don't matter now. So how about just looking at the performances in Calgary? Is that fair? Smith had arguably the better team in front of him, and backstopped that team to a non-playoff year. He had a better save%, but a worse goals against average. The most important factor, he was only 2 games over .500 for the Flames, while Elliott was 8 games over .500. Elliott got his team into the post-season under the same coach, same systems, and with a weaker blueline (Wideman, Engelland, Jokipakka, and Bartkowsi!). I get the disgust in Elliott's epic meltdown for the Flames, but he provided way more consistent and reliable goaltending for the Flames, and for every other team he's played for. He's a mediocre goaltender as well, but he's just slightly less mediocre than Smith.


Here's the thing about this discussion. Neither are a goaltender you want to have backstopping your team. This is like trying to decide which McDonald's burger is best. None of them are any good. You're better off walking out the door and finding a different place to eat. The Flames would be better off finding a goaltender that is better than either of these two duds.

[Bingo]

Glad I'm not in this argument, there isn't much point.

Both goaltenders are middling, Elliott seems to have a lower floor when his confidence falls out, but both have always been middle of the pack starters and realistically likely still are.

Seems like two guys arguing about what shade of beige to paint their man cave.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by New Era

Except he really wasn't. Smith has provided mediocre goaltending on every team he has been on...

Seriously?

Come on. While I realize that your tunnel vision in numerous hockey related matters is difficult to overcome I also find it difficult to believe that you are not being intentionally obtuse about this. Through the first 2/3 of the 2017–18 season while Smith was healthy he was riding a 0.921 SP and was invited to the All Star Game. He provided quality goaltending for the Flames all the way from October to mid-February, and there is NO DOUBT that his season-ending numbers were dramatically affected by his early return from an injury.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Glad I'm not in this argument, there isn't much point.

Both goaltenders are middling, Elliott seems to have a lower floor when his confidence falls out, but both have always been middle of the pack starters and realistically likely still are.

Seems like two guys arguing about what shade of beige to paint their man cave.

While I tend to agree with you the fact he was picked as the 3rd string Canadian goalie in the Olympics means he is highly regarded and has a strong pedigree.

There's no way Elliott would have ever come anywhere close to the Canadian Olympic team.

But yea I still agree that neither are high end goalies as they both leave a little something to be desired. Elliott is not as good however IMO.