Official WWE/ECW/WCW/TNA talk, or whatever v2

[SuperMatt18]

I think AEW will be a real threat as long as the Elite core can manage their egos, and if they let their guys be themselves.

Moxley is the perfect example, his vignettes on Twitter and the run in at AEW have been more entertaining than anything since his Roadblock match with HHH in WWE

Plus WWE superstars are intrigued and even some of the guys who seem like they have good roles in the company right now (Becky, Big E, etc) don’t always seem to be happy with the direction of the company.

I think pressure on Vince to take a step back is really going to increase right away here.

[CedarMeter]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I was surprised that Mark Henry showed up at AEW even as a member of the media, he's still a WWE employee and a producer.

Mole.

[CMPunk]

WWE really doesn't care what anyone thinks...this Raw has been garbage...Firefly Fun House is the only interesting thing happening

[CedarMeter]

Originally Posted by CMPunk

WWE really doesn't care what anyone thinks...this Raw has been garbage...Firefly Fun House is the only interesting thing happening

Has a AEW chant started yet?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by CedarMeter

Has a AEW chant started yet?

Yeah during the terrible Shane McMahon segment that started with a chant of "This is awful" then a AEW chant

I got to that point and turned Raw off. It was that dysfunctional.

Shane is now pretty much the number one heel in the company.

They have Lesnar just doing weird shyte with a boom box money in the bank briefcase. Then he found out that he had a year before he had to cash it in and walked out. Like Lesnar has been with the company for how many years and he didn't know that the Money in the Bank is a one year deal. I mean its just terrible booking

some kind of bizarre USO block party that had nothing to do with nothing.

Oh a comedy skit where all of the forgotten roster members are chasing R-Truth around the building to win the 24-7 belt

At that point I think I realized that I had better things to do then watch this trainwreck.

Looking at the highlights/lowlights. Baron Corbin won a fatal 4 way against Strowman, Miz and Bobby Lashley to get a title shot against Seth Rollins.

They had another one of those stupid fans ask the question with Sami Zayn and he wondered why fans didn't ask about AEW.

The main event was a throwaway match between Zayn and Rollins.

God this product is so terrible and stale right now. The woman had one segment with a tag team of Cross and Becky which makes no sense because Cross is with Bliss against the Iconics. So it feels like they're starting to give up on the woman's division as well.

[Strange Brew]

CC,

I thought we would continue our discussion about the screwjob here, instead of the entertainment thread. I read your rebuttal to my last point, and there are still a few things that don't ring true for me about the whole thing:

Bret's refusal to lose to Michaels. As you say, Bret was a traditionalist and he couldn't seriously have expected that he could leave the promotion by just handing the belt over without being beaten, or that he could choose the next champion? Yeah he hated Michaels but he lost to him before. You have to believe guys are losing to guys they hate every night of the year. And he was leaving the promotion. And not wanting to lose in Canada? Seems thin to me.

As you pointed out, the documentary had started filming months earlier. But IIRC they thought they it was done until Bret called them back, as he thought something might be going on in Montreal. Suddenly they are backstage and I don't recall that kind of access in other parts of the documentary during actual PPV's. And of course Bret punching out Vince happens off camera. At a minimum Vince knew #### was going on and he didn't have an issue with cameras backstage that night?

This certainly handed WCW a hot commodity. But if Bret was being difficult this was better than the champ not losing the belt. And who knew how big a deal this would become.

Lots of people have definitely come out and said how real this was. People in the wrestling business so I take it with a grain of salt. I mean I'm probably wrong but as I said, it has never really had the ring of truth for me. At the end of the day, Bret wasn't "screwed" out of anything.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

CC,

I thought we would continue our discussion about the screwjob here, instead of the entertainment thread. I read your rebuttal to my last point, and there are still a few things that don't ring true for me about the whole thing:

Bret's refusal to lose to Michaels. As you say, Bret was a traditionalist and he couldn't seriously have expected that he could leave the promotion by just handing the belt over without being beaten, or that he could choose the next champion? Yeah he hated Michaels but he lost to him before. You have to believe guys are losing to guys they hate every night of the year. And he was leaving the promotion. And not wanting to lose in Canada? Seems thin to me.

By the time of the Montreal screwjob HHH and Shawn pretty much controlled the WWE dressing room. If you go back and look at it, both were pretty much universally hated by the locker room, but were protected by Vince because he believed that they were draws.



At one point Shawn and Bret actually had a really good relationship, but Shawn's personal demons made him impossible to work with.



It culminated with the Sunny Days promo, which Bret says almost wrecked his marriage (Now to be fair, Bret has admitted to cheating on his wife multiple times, just not with Sunny). This lead to a backstage confrontation where Bret basically beat the sh%t out of Shawn and pulled out a chunk of his hair and lead to Shawn storming out of the company.



Shawn drew a line in the sand with Bret and the other talent when he came back and basically said he wasn't going to lose especially to Bret.



At the same time, Bret has said that he didn't really like the attitude era wrestling. Though to be honest, his heel work at the end of his WWE contract was his best work period end of story.


Bret was willing to drop the title to anyone but Michael's because of the war between them. He was also willing to show up the next night on Raw and give up the title, even though his contract expired after the PPV. Vince having seen Medusa dumping the WWE Woman's title int he trash and badly losing the Monday Night Wars was terrified of Bret showing up on Nitro with the WWE title belt. Even though Bret I don't think was the type to do something like that. Up until the Screwjob he and Vince still had a good relationship.

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

As you pointed out, the documentary had started filming months earlier. But IIRC they thought they it was done until Bret called them back, as he thought something might be going on in Montreal. Suddenly they are backstage and I don't recall that kind of access in other parts of the documentary during actual PPV's. And of course Bret punching out Vince happens off camera. At a minimum Vince knew #### was going on and he didn't have an issue with cameras backstage that night?

Bret was paranoid of getting screwed over at that point, so he wanted to document his last days with WWE. That's also why he wore the wire, and also why he went to Hebner before the match to ask if something was going on. If anyone is to blame for Vince getting punched out, it was Undertaker who went to Vince and demanded that he go and apologize to Bret. Vince I think knew that there was going to be a physical altercation that's why he had Shane and some other guys with him. Remember that even earlier in the documentary we had lots of backstage moments filmed including discussions between Vince and Bret that concerned contracts and booking.

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

This certainly handed WCW a hot commodity. But if Bret was being difficult this was better than the champ not losing the belt. And who knew how big a deal this would become.

Bret was willing to drop the belt to anyone, he was also willing to hand over the belt, so I don't think it was ever about Bret being difficult to deal with. He just refused to drop the belt to Shawn because he felt that Shawn had treated him with a complete lack of respect.



The biggest reason for me not to think this is a work, is Vince couldn't predict how WCW would do with Bret. At the time of the Screwjob, WCW was eating WWE alive. Vince was in real financial trouble at that point, and the discussion was about WWE survival. I mean after the fact Vince said that WCW wouldn't know what to do with Bret. But nobody could have ever predicted that the combination of Hall and Nash's influence back stage and WCW creatives idiotic booking would piss away a screwed over former WWE world champion and all of the potential dream matches that could have happened. I don't think that Vince would have intentionally taken that risk.

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Lots of people have definitely come out and said how real this was. People in the wrestling business so I take it with a grain of salt. I mean I'm probably wrong but as I said, it has never really had the ring of truth for me. At the end of the day, Bret wasn't "screwed" out of anything.

Bret's career came to a crashing halt in WCW, I think in his book he talked about how he didn't realize how bad the WCW locker room situation was until he got there. He also spent a long time blaming himself for Owen's death. He's even stated that if he would have stayed with WWE there was no way that he would have allowed Owen's stunt which was done because Owen was being punished by Vince for refusing to do the Debra, Jeff Jarrett Owen love triangle angle. Because Owen said no to that, he was put back into the Blue Blazer gimmick, pretty much jobbed out and made to look stupid.


You could argue that Bret gained immensely, money wise, but his legacy was tarnished in WCW.


Meanwhile, WWE found something where they didn't expect to find it, and that's the best heel the company has ever seen in the Mr McMahon character.

[KelVarnsen]

Of course Lesnar didn’t know the one year deal with MiTB, he’s never on RAW enough to know...

[CaptainCrunch]

That was just such a moronic piece of writing. I mean Brock tried in that segment, when they had that technical glitch and he was dancing around while Heyman was playing air guitar. The contract slap on Heyman made me laugh.


But man that was bad writing.

[Muta]

Tonight's Raw is probably my last for a long time. I can't watch this product anymore, it's insufferable.

But it also reminds me why I love NJPW. While the storylines aren't as 'Hollywood' as WWE, their storylines are raw, real, fan-respecting, and long-term and all tied together with amazing wrestling. Exactly what a wrestling product should be. NJPW keeps the class in wrestling, and the focus on the actual in-ring talent. BOSJ, Dominion, G1 Climax... so good. It's why I absolutely love going to Wrestle Kingdom.

I'm hoping AEW goes the same route; the American fans deserve so much more than the crap WWE is giving them (aside from NXT). It's all on Vince as well... Triple H really needs to take over the product.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

It culminated with the Sunny Days promo, which Bret says almost wrecked his marriage (Now to be fair, Bret has admitted to cheating on his wife multiple times, just not with Sunny). This lead to a backstage confrontation where Bret basically beat the sh%t out of Shawn and pulled out a chunk of his hair and lead to Shawn storming out of the company.



Shawn drew a line in the sand with Bret and the other talent when he came back and basically said he wasn't going to lose especially to Bret.



At the same time, Bret has said that he didn't really like the attitude era wrestling. Though to be honest, his heel work at the end of his WWE contract was his best work period end of story.


Bret was willing to drop the title to anyone but Michael's because of the war between them. He was also willing to show up the next night on Raw and give up the title, even though his contract expired after the PPV. Vince having seen Medusa dumping the WWE Woman's title int he trash and badly losing the Monday Night Wars was terrified of Bret showing up on Nitro with the WWE title belt. Even though Bret I don't think was the type to do something like that. Up until the Screwjob he and Vince still had a good relationship.




Bret was willing to drop the belt to anyone, he was also willing to hand over the belt, so I don't think it was ever about Bret being difficult to deal with. He just refused to drop the belt to Shawn because he felt that Shawn had treated him with a complete lack of respect.

Yeah I read Bret's autobiography and the Sunny days promo seems like a minor detail in the ending of his marriage. That would be some misplaced anger but maybe beside the point.

I also never found it very odd when Vince is on TV the next day doing an interview, black eye and all. He sure didn't seem to be shying away from what happened, almost like he was playing it up...

And Bret's offer to hand over the belt. How could he possibly think that would be OK? Leave without being beaten? WCW would most certainly play that up.

If it went exactly as Bret said it did, he certainly comes across as a primadonna. Wanting to pick the next champion, or not lose to the guy the promotion wants to hold the belt. While you are on your way out to a gigantic payday. Vince essentially had no choice.

Personally I think its much cooler to believe this is the arrangement they cooked up.

[Muta]

The Emancipation of Jon Moxley

https://omny.fm/shows/talk-is-jerich...-of-jon-moxley

Outstanding interview with Jon Moxley on Talk Is Jericho. He shoots on WWE HARD.

[SuperMatt18]

Vince's inability to give up any creative control is by far the biggest issue with that company right now.

You either do it the way he wants it done, or you leave.

I've always been a "WWE" guy, going back to the Monday Night Wars, but I really want AEW to succeed now because I think that's the only way the wrestling industry improves.

[Ozy_Flame]

WWE right now is the opposite extreme end of what happens when there isn't enough creative control given to the talent. Vince has too much of an iron fist and is interfering with good storytelling. You can tell that good storytelling is there with Triple H in the wings and what he does with NXT, but it's really starting to show that he's not being given much on the main roster (I think he's even been known to be frustrated lately).

WCW was on the complete other end of the spectrum, with too much creative control given to each wrestler, which resulted in a crap product with no consistency (egos also helped ruin it to boot).

Somewhere in the middle is the perfect balance. Have writers that guide the storylines generally, but let the characters and their traits develop based on the characters the wrestlers can actually play - NATURALLY. This can't be that hard to do. If Dean wanted to be Jon Moxley all along, surely there would have been 100 storylines that included Moxley as a character.

I also refer to the usage of Dustin Rhodes in his last few months in WWE as short skit, gag punchline character. Then when he debuts for AEW, his promos and his matches really played well to what he could do - and he's in his 50's. He had damn near the best match of Double or Nothing, and WWE would not allow him to demonstrate that at all.

Main roster WWE is unwatchable right now, and it's sad to see such a waste of talent. I'm hoping something there dramatically changes, because it's a waste to see guys like Cesaro, Luke Harper, and Samoa Joe be held back for what is probably a variety of trivial reasons.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

WWE right now is the opposite extreme end of what happens when there isn't enough creative control given to the talent. Vince has too much of an iron fist and is interfering with good storytelling. You can tell that good storytelling is there with Triple H in the wings and what he does with NXT, but it's really starting to show that he's not being given much on the main roster (I think he's even been known to be frustrated lately).

WCW was on the complete other end of the spectrum, with too much creative control given to each wrestler, which resulted in a crap product with no consistency (egos also helped ruin it to boot).

Somewhere in the middle is the perfect balance. Have writers that guide the storylines generally, but let the characters and their traits develop based on the characters the wrestlers can actually play - NATURALLY. This can't be that hard to do. If Dean wanted to be Jon Moxley all along, surely there would have been 100 storylines that included Moxley as a character.

I also refer to the usage of Dustin Rhodes in his last few months in WWE as short skit, gag punchline character. Then when he debuts for AEW, his promos and his matches really played well to what he could do - and he's in his 50's. He had damn near the best match of Double or Nothing, and WWE would not allow him to demonstrate that at all.

Main roster WWE is unwatchable right now, and it's sad to see such a waste of talent. I'm hoping something there dramatically changes, because it's a waste to see guys like Cesaro, Luke Harper, and Samoa Joe be held back for what is probably a variety of trivial reasons.

I agree with what you said, but just to add, one of the things that ultimately killed WCW was that they were booking on the fly, stories and scripts were created and modified on the same day as Nitro and Thunder. Because of that it became a incoherant mess of heel and face turns and they burned out their belts with surprise changes that were meaningless.


During the attitude era, the WWE wrote weeks in advance and had the basic premise of story lines at the very list.


Now it sounds like WWE is booking on the fly and writing scripts on the same day as the show, and because of that the story lines have become messes punctuated with inane bits to fill time.

[Muta]

Yeah, proud for Dustin Rhodes at DON. Dude single-handedly gave WWE the middle finger by putting on an outstanding match and showing his actual skills, instead of being used as a comedic joke.

[Inferno]

[rubecube]

Nearly 100k PPV buys for Double or Nothing. Some other interesting metrics in the article as well. We'll see if they can keep the momentum going but so far so good.

https://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/20...g-drew-654676/

[Maritime Q-Scout]

So in 2.5 hours, East Coast Pro Wrestling has a local tv taping here in Sydney.

Their ring announcer fell threw and through a series of events I have been recruited to fill in.

I pray they don't get my ugly mug on camera. (I'm not nearly as hot as Lilian Garcia or Brandi Rhodes).

Any advice? What do you like from the ring announcers?

[Freeway]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

So in 2.5 hours, East Coast Pro Wrestling has a local tv taping here in Sydney.

Their ring announcer fell threw and through a series of events I have been recruited to fill in.

I pray they don't get my ugly mug on camera. (I'm not nearly as hot as Lilian Garcia or Brandi Rhodes).

Any advice? What do you like from the ring announcers?

Make sure you get the names right.