Official (Alberta) Oil Discussion Thread

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

$15.20/hr is (very) firmly below the poverty line in Calgary. Not sure about BC or wherein BC but it definitely is a very far cry from “a ton of money”.

In fact there’s a chance you may be able to beg on the street and get that and dictate your own hours.

My brother cannot keep staff at $20/hr to cut lawns.

You know people like to criticize oil and gas workers for being paid so much but it’s actually more that any other industry, equally or more profitable, pay their staff outrageously low. Look at banking for example. Record profits billions every quarter and they pay like absolute garbage. It’s actually unbelievable people put up with that crap but at the end of the day it’s just the labour market I guess.

Large companies need to pay more and realize that business is not exclusively at the behest of shareholders but of stakeholders of which employees are one of…………… organizations that treat / pay employees badly I kind of hope go bankrupt and I definitely refuse to invest in them.

$15.12 is below poverty. $18 dollars an hour is considered a minimum to make to make a living wage 8n most places. $20 in Victoria , Vancouver and surrounding areas. That's if you just want to cover the basics. Rent(not home ownership, bills and food.

80 hours at $15.12 is just hovering at 1000 bucks a cheque after everything gets taken off. $ 2000 bucks a month dosent buy very much these days. Rents expensive, Food prices have continually risen, you need some sort of transportation, utility's have risen etc etc.

15.12 to many owners always seem to " wow! If I had that in the 80 and 90s I'd have been set!" Then they also say "we'll I can't afford more because my costs have gone up!" And that's kind of the point. If you start paying more to employees that they can actually afford to save AND have extra cash to spend on things than the business everywhere could afford to pay people more because people would have more to spend that would cover higher wages and the higher operating costs. Etc etc...

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

What's the cause of the labor crunch outside of O&G? It can't all be people who are still preferring to live off CERB/EI? Did everybody suddenly find a remote job that they can do by Zoom from home?

It's not that people are wanting to live on Ei/Cerb. Some companies are trying to keep the home based model or a hybrid solution but ALOT of people are taking this opportunity to switch fields and retrain/goback to school. It was a perfect excuse to quit that job that you hated to retrain for a different field either for a better wage or one more suited to your tastes as you get older.

I think for alot of people the pause help people understand what they wanted to do and get out of their personal and professional relationships. I think the work force will rebound ( obviously) but I think it may be a few years at least . The labour force is basically going to be shifting around as people retrain and go back to school.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

It's not that people are wanting to live on Ei/Cerb. Some companies are trying to keep the home based model or a hybrid solution but ALOT of people are taking this opportunity to switch fields and retrain/goback to school. It was a perfect excuse to quit that job that you hated to retrain for a different field either for a better wage or one more suited to your tastes as you get older.

I think for alot of people the pause help people understand what they wanted to do and get out of their personal and professional relationships. I think the work force will rebound ( obviously) but I think it may be a few years at least . The labour force is basically going to be shifting around as people retrain and go back to school.

Yeah, we haven't seen it to quite the same extent in Canada as in the US but it's NUTS there.
Between people that held on to their job and didn't quit in 2020 bc they wanted security, folksgoing back to school, moved during the pandemic, decided their employer didn't handle covid very well, want to work from home, rising wages to compete for talent, unemployment benefits etc, turnover and attracting people is like nothing we've ever seen in our lifetimes.

[SeeGeeWhy]

Living wage in Calgary is just short of $21 for last year. Inflation is definitely something we are experiencing still, especially in real estate, so I’d imagine that’s inclining.

I think the disparity comes from people disagreeing that minimum wage jobs are for anyone but young, entry level workers and not adults requiring that job to take care of themselves or dependents.

[indes]

Originally Posted by timun

I'm curious how old you are, and how that colours your perception of "a ton of money for a young adult".

I'm 32 and I made 8$/hr working part time while in college. The equivalent today would be 10.48. 50% more buying power sounds like a lot to me but maybe I'm old fashioned. I didn't clarify that by 'young adults' I meant 18-23, looking for money for beer and gas.

I'm not trying to insinuate that $15.20 is a living wage, but to be washing dishes or cooking 20 hours a week for beer money it seems pretty good to me. I can't even find decent servers and they do 35-60$/hr in tips on the weekend. Thats insane money and I still can't find people who are reliable and motivated.

I just hope the end of CERB will bring people back to work. I also hope the line of thinking that my restaurant should support every employee, their family and set them up for retirement goes out the window too but I doubt it.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by indes

I just hope the end of CERB will bring people back to work. I also hope the line of thinking that my restaurant should support every employee, their family and set them up for retirement goes out the window too but I doubt it.

This is an interesting question.

My preference would be the market pays what the market will pay and you tax profits and income in order to target subsides at those who need it.

But it is tough to argue with a concept that if your provide X hours of labour at any skill level the you should be able to take care of yourself without needing government supports.

Essentially you are relying on parents, student loans or the government to subsidize the living expenses of those who work for you. In general I prefer this model as not every worker has a need to earn a “living wage” and in future your employees should eventually get higher paying jobs and pay more in taxes to repay those subsidies.

[Roughneck]

That 'pretty good money' is the minimum wage. You can get it anywhere. A few extra hours a week to make up for lost tips and make insane money but also not having to deal with entitled customers? Easy choice in the service industry vs. anywhere else line of work.

[Fuzz]

Oops, wrong thread. Stupid Mondays.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by indes

I'm 32 and I made 8$/hr working part time while in college. The equivalent today would be 10.48. 50% more buying power sounds like a lot to me but maybe I'm old fashioned. I didn't clarify that by 'young adults' I meant 18-23, looking for money for beer and gas.

I'm not trying to insinuate that $15.20 is a living wage, but to be washing dishes or cooking 20 hours a week for beer money it seems pretty good to me. I can't even find decent servers and they do 35-60$/hr in tips on the weekend. Thats insane money and I still can't find people who are reliable and motivated.

I just hope the end of CERB will bring people back to work. I also hope the line of thinking that my restaurant should support every employee, their family and set them up for retirement goes out the window too but I doubt it.

I do think that a lot of people got hosed during their youth with a terrible minimum wage so they think $15 or whatever it is now seems crazy.

I don't believe the cutting of benefits has changed in some US states has changed much in terms of labour supply, so not sure CERB is going to lead to people knocking down your door. Big demand for workers so people can be picky with where they work.

[indes]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I do think that a lot of people got hosed during their youth with a terrible minimum wage so they think $15 or whatever it is now seems crazy.

I don't believe the cutting of benefits has changed in some US states has changed much in terms of labour supply, so not sure CERB is going to lead to people knocking down your door. Big demand for workers so people can be picky with where they work.

IMO when you see both sides of the minimum wage increase it just doesn't make sense. The money always has to come from somewhere, but people aren't willing to part with it to support a higher minimum wage.

Wages go up, cost of materials goes up with it, end price of product goes up. I can understand where this theory makes sense, even if I don't agree with the path it sets us on.

In the real world I can't recoup those added costs. I can only increase the price so much before people just stop buying things from me, trust me, I've tried. What myself and many others have had to do is cut management. I can't afford a manager anymore and now my partner just works more for the same money and some of the responsibility is shifted. We get along just fine and profits are about the same, sounds good right?

The thing that irks me is that I had a position that provided a living wage for someone to live and raise a family on, and now I don't. Now my 17 year old dishwasher has a ballin stereo in his car and my old manager with 2 kids has moved because he couldn't find a job.

I realize this is all anecdotal but I think on a macro scale the artificial inflation on minimum wage has the opposite effect its supposed to. I believe it will only further the wealth gap between rich and poor and squeeze the middle class lower. Its almost like trying to force a trickle down effect, forcing money to the bottom when there is no way to make it come from the top.

Maybe this should be a new thread? Sorry for the derail!

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by indes

IMO when you see both sides of the minimum wage increase it just doesn't make sense. The money always has to come from somewhere, but people aren't willing to part with it to support a higher minimum wage.

Wages go up, cost of materials goes up with it, end price of product goes up. I can understand where this theory makes sense, even if I don't agree with the path it sets us on.

In the real world I can't recoup those added costs. I can only increase the price so much before people just stop buying things from me, trust me, I've tried. What myself and many others have had to do is cut management. I can't afford a manager anymore and now my partner just works more for the same money and some of the responsibility is shifted. We get along just fine and profits are about the same, sounds good right?

The thing that irks me is that I had a position that provided a living wage for someone to live and raise a family on, and now I don't. Now my 17 year old dishwasher has a ballin stereo in his car and my old manager with 2 kids has moved because he couldn't find a job.

I realize this is all anecdotal but I think on a macro scale the artificial inflation on minimum wage has the opposite effect its supposed to. I believe it will only further the wealth gap between rich and poor and squeeze the middle class lower. Its almost like trying to force a trickle down effect, forcing money to the bottom when there is no way to make it come from the top.

Maybe this should be a new thread? Sorry for the derail!

Just to be clear, your thought is that your anecdotal situation applies to the reality more than all of the combined studies of economists on the societal impact of minimum wage increases?

[indes]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Just to be clear, your thought is that your anecdotal situation applies to the reality more than all of the combined studies of economists on the societal impact of minimum wage increases?

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. My opinion is that money doesn't just appear out of thin air to pay everyone a "living wage". It has to come from somewhere and if no one controls where it comes from, it comes from the middle class. Again, just my opinion, mandates like this that just pull money from the air are just to buy votes and don't provide a discernably higher quality of living for anyone.

Forbes

Seattle’s move to $15 an hour, a few years ago, resulted in workers given fewer hours and experiencing a net loss in pay.

Harvard Business Review

Between these three factors, our data suggests that the combination of reduced hours, eligibility for benefits, and schedule consistency that resulted from a $1 increase in the minimum wage added up to average net losses of at least $1,590 per year per employee — equivalent to 11.6% of workers’ total wage compensation (and this is assuming that workers were able to use their reduced hours to work a second job — an assumption which may not hold true for many employees)

CNBC

Although increasing the minimum wage would potentially create more spending power for low-income Americans, it would also raise the costs of child care by an average of 21% in the U.S., a new Heritage Foundation study finds. It would add an extra expense of $3,728 per year for a family with two children due to the increased labor costs, the study finds.

[PeteMoss]

No idea what the end results are but the US has states that vary from $7.25/hour to around $15 - so I would assume their must be studies on it.

[chedder]

Maybe this minimum wage discussion can be moved to it's own thread if it's going to continue? It has little to do with Alberta oil.

On oil, temporary summer blip to the downside or the party's over? I think the former myself. Fear of variants coupled with summer and borders still closed. Plus headline inventory numbers that only tell part of the story.

Hoping for a stronger 4th quarter.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by indes

IMO when you see both sides of the minimum wage increase it just doesn't make sense. The money always has to come from somewhere, but people aren't willing to part with it to support a higher minimum wage.

Wages go up, cost of materials goes up with it, end price of product goes up. I can understand where this theory makes sense, even if I don't agree with the path it sets us on.

In the real world I can't recoup those added costs. I can only increase the price so much before people just stop buying things from me, trust me, I've tried. What myself and many others have had to do is cut management. I can't afford a manager anymore and now my partner just works more for the same money and some of the responsibility is shifted. We get along just fine and profits are about the same, sounds good right?

The thing that irks me is that I had a position that provided a living wage for someone to live and raise a family on, and now I don't. Now my 17 year old dishwasher has a ballin stereo in his car and my old manager with 2 kids has moved because he couldn't find a job.

I realize this is all anecdotal but I think on a macro scale the artificial inflation on minimum wage has the opposite effect its supposed to. I believe it will only further the wealth gap between rich and poor and squeeze the middle class lower. Its almost like trying to force a trickle down effect, forcing money to the bottom when there is no way to make it come from the top.

Maybe this should be a new thread? Sorry for the derail!

I see where you're coming from.

My major issue with the increase in minimum wage is that its lazy.

Its lazy Politics.

Did it really help the people it was intended to? Child Care costs went up, costs of goods went up, hours likely went down, positions were eliminated or automated.

But hey...$15 MINIMUM WAGE!!

It sounds snazzy when you say it in front of a camera, but they didnt do the work to decide if it was a good idea before implementing it and everything afterwards is just spin. Its essentially propaganda.

"I did this thing thus it was a good and important thing to be done!"

Raising the minimum wage isnt a bad idea. Jumping the hell out of it during tight economic circumstances is a bad idea.

Economics isnt 'plug and play.' Changing 1 factor to achieve the desired result doesnt work, there are many moving pieces. So just jacking up minimum wage is unlikely to achieve your goal.

Further, and I've said this a million times. The wage itself doesnt matter. If the goal is to help people, then all that matters is the purchasing power of the net pay.

If you just Carpet Bomb the place with more money, the cost of goods and services comply with the increase and have you actually increased the purchasing power of the people you're trying to help?

[Macman]

It's good to be optimistic about oil but the party's been over for a lot of people for a long time already and many are actually now working minimum wage jobs trying to survive.

The problem with the minimum wage is there needs to be some discretion there for consideration on who's actually working for you. If you're a mature adult supporting yourself and your family then you should get paid more vs someone that's still a student and is only there temporarily.

The problem is the people who own and run the corporations and even a lot of businesses have turned to exploiting workers with wages you can't even live off.

I've never been in a union but my views on unions have changed a lot over the last couple years even. A good union job is a dream for many people. At least you have a few rights, wages, safety and things like that.

I actually saw someone smoking in a Enmax truck the other day which was surprising to me and would think that would be against their safety protocol. So this is another thing when talking about getting a decent job, nobody should be around second hand smoke anymore, but if you don't like it you need to suck it up or find a new job.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Macman

It's good to be optimistic about oil but the party's been over for a lot of people for a long time already and many are actually now working minimum wage jobs trying to survive.

The problem with the minimum wage is there needs to be some discretion there for consideration on who's actually working for you. If you're a mature adult supporting yourself and your family then you should get paid more vs someone that's still a student and is only there temporarily.

The problem is the people who own and run the corporations and even a lot of businesses have turned to exploiting workers with wages you can't even live off.

I've never been in a union but my views on unions have changed a lot over the last couple years even. A good union job is a dream for many people. At least you have a few rights, wages, safety and things like that.

I actually saw someone smoking in a Enmax truck the other day which was surprising to me and would think that would be against their safety protocol. So this is another thing when talking about getting a decent job, nobody should be around second hand smoke anymore, but if you don't like it you need to suck it up or find a new job.

Why?

If you're both working the same unskilled job why should the old person with a family get any additional benefits at all?

The wage is the wage for the job. Not the person.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Locke

The wage is the wage for the job. Not the person.

Exactly. Which is why Jason Kenney's bill that allows businesses to pay less than the regular minimum wage to Alberta workers under the age of 18 is total BS. People are compensated for the job they perform and the value they generate for their employer, not their age or their individual financial needs.

[Macman]

Originally Posted by Locke

Why?

If you're both working the same unskilled job why should the old person with a family get any additional benefits at all?

The wage is the wage for the job. Not the person.

If we're talking about diversifying the economy then why not increase wages in some of these industries like the restaurant industry. They like to drive the narrative that they can't fill positions but it's because they don't pay enough. And that's just one industry, there's many others.

I saw an article a couple days ago where former restaurant workers are pushing back at claims their employers are making in can't filling positions, basically workers saying it's low paying abusive work environments and that's why they're not coming back.

[_Q_]

It always gets me when you see articles saying something like "despite high unemployment, we can't find the right workers."

How about you shut up, hire people that might not be 100% fit and pay people what they're worth?