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Old 06-05-2019, 10:49 AM   #41
Textcritic
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Originally Posted by Flash Walken View Post
Could be interpreted multiple ways.

Some guys are hard on themselves and have crazy high standards. They use a pessimistic attitude about their own skills to push themselves to be better and to improve their weaknesses.

Some guys are hard on themselves in a 'poor me' way, finding external justifications for poor performance (New stick, new systems etc), focusing on trying to improve their strengths because focusing on their weaknesses is incompatible with external justifications for poor performance.
"Impressions" from bystanders are of no actual value in this discussion. Your false dichotomy of interpretations for "being hard on oneself" is a hilarious straw man.

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IMO Neal was in the second category last year. His "Give a ####" 'o Meter barely seemed to blink during the course of the season, and his lack of engagement against Colorado was a supreme factor in the Flames losing in the way that they did.

I'm sure he's a nice guy and i'm sure he cares, but obviously last season he didn't care enough to change his game to improve the team.
"Obviously"? You either have no idea what the word means, or you are being deliberately dishonest about the fact that you don't know James Neal, and you don't know about how he feels regarding his own performance last season.

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Textcritic suggested that Neal's contract isn't insurmountable because St.Louis and Boston have under performing older players on big tickets as well. I'll leave it to individual posters to determine whether guys like Steen and Backes have their give a #### o meter burning a fiery red glow or not.

Alex Steen is still a capable forward willing to play 13 minutes a night without complaint. James Neal is a significantly worse 3 zone player last seen arguing with the coaching staff for an increase on his 14 minutes per night.

One's a buyout candidate, the other an integral component of a Finals team.

Neal could be a part of a winning group in Calgary, but I just don't think he wants it bad enough to do it.
Yes. That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. James Neal has been a high impact contributing member of his last two teams's Stanley Cup runs, so I am not about to pass final judgment on his career and declare it is over.

I will stand by the point of my simple argument above that an underperforming player on a high-cost contract is not ON HIS OWN enough to impede a team from winning the Stanley Cup. I don't know why Neal seemed too struggle as much as he did last year, and I am not about to make up reasons for his poor performance cobbled together from bits and soundbites reified in my own imagination. I continue to hope that he will be better next year, but am not expecting much. The situation is what it is, and there is not much to be done to fix it but to stay positive.
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Old 06-05-2019, 10:57 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by troutman View Post
That's totally not the impression I get.


Take it for what you will. All I am stating is that is what Treliving said.

Treliving is not going to call Neal out so I think he is just going with the easiest generic position.

1. Yes Neal had a down year
2. We are working with him. That is all we can do
3. Neal feels bad himself and knows he needs to do better (Neal himself said this all year. What else is he going to say?)

However, as stated it did look like he didn't give a crap all year now that he is has his "big" final contract. Not much we can do about it. All we can do is hope he really does care, had a down year and finds a way to rebound.
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Old 06-05-2019, 12:12 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken View Post
Could be interpreted multiple ways.

Some guys are hard on themselves and have crazy high standards. They use a pessimistic attitude about their own skills to push themselves to be better and to improve their weaknesses.

Some guys are hard on themselves in a 'poor me' way, finding external justifications for poor performance (New stick, new systems etc), focusing on trying to improve their strengths because focusing on their weaknesses is incompatible with external justifications for poor performance.

IMO Neal was in the second category last year. His "Give a ####" 'o Meter barely seemed to blink during the course of the season, and his lack of engagement against Colorado was a supreme factor in the Flames losing in the way that they did.

I'm sure he's a nice guy and i'm sure he cares, but obviously last season he didn't care enough to change his game to improve the team.

Textcritic suggested that Neal's contract isn't insurmountable because St.Louis and Boston have under performing older players on big tickets as well. I'll leave it to individual posters to determine whether guys like Steen and Backes have their give a #### o meter burning a fiery red glow or not.

Alex Steen is still a capable forward willing to play 13 minutes a night without complaint. James Neal is a significantly worse 3 zone player last seen arguing with the coaching staff for an increase on his 14 minutes per night.

One's a buyout candidate, the other an integral component of a Finals team.

Neal could be a part of a winning group in Calgary, but I just don't think he wants it bad enough to do it.
I am at a loss how a fan on the outside could come to these conclusions. Singling out Neal for a total team collapse against the Avalanche is one of the most ridiculous things I have seen posted here in a while. Nobody is going to dispute he wasn't in the category of Smith and Bennett in the only two players that elevated their games in the postseason but I'm pretty sure if Monahan, Tkachuk, and Gaudreau played to the levels they are capable of it wouldn't have mattered what Neal did as the team would have beaten the Avs. The guy didn't even play in game 5 which they lost for crying out loud. I guess it's his fault for not waving the pom poms hard enough from the press box.

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Old 06-05-2019, 12:19 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Erick Estrada View Post
I am at a loss how a fan on the outside could come to these conclusions. Singling out Neal for a total team collapse against the Avalanche is one of the most ridiculous things I have seen posted here in a while.
He was supposed to be a difference maker and was so bad the Flames chose not to play him. Think of how bad the organization thought his play was if they were willing to sit him in year 1 of a 5 year deal in the most important game of their season.

Here is James Neal's third period contribution in his last game of the season:

https://streamable.com/64qeo

Here is Neal's last shift of the season:

https://streamable.com/99ht3

You'll note the scores and context for these shifts, and their respective results.
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How does the number of playoff games the Bruins won *this last season* have anything to do with their number of draft picks in the last three calendar years?
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Old 06-05-2019, 12:32 PM   #45
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I wonder with whom Treliving had dinner? drafting 26th in this draft, it must be hard to know who is available.
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Old 06-05-2019, 12:48 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Toonage View Post
To piggyback off this thread, Treliving is on 960 this morning (has been for about an hour) and while there isn't a ton of new info coming out of the interview its still worth a listen when they put it up on the podcast later today.
here's Tre on the morning show:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/960/boomer-...g-clean-it-up/

Tre starts at the 1:09 mark
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Originally Posted by GoJetsGo View Post
How does the number of playoff games the Bruins won *this last season* have anything to do with their number of draft picks in the last three calendar years?

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Old 06-05-2019, 01:03 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Rubber Ducky View Post
Funny that you mention Jordan Binnington. Brad said last night, while talking about goalies, that there's a goalie playing in the SC Finals right now that he took a call about last year. The call was about placing a goalie on one of the Flames farm teams (can't remember if it was AHL or ECHL). It was a neat story that just goes to show that you just never know about goalies and how the develop.
Plus, you still don't know whether Binnington is a one year wonder similar to Andrew Hammond, or if he's the real deal. Goalies are often such a crapshoot to predict, and can fluctuate between AHL to NHL calibre season to season.
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Old 06-05-2019, 01:05 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Flash Walken View Post
He was supposed to be a difference maker and was so bad the Flames chose not to play him. Think of how bad the organization thought his play was if they were willing to sit him in year 1 of a 5 year deal in the most important game of their season.
This is a completely irrelevant argument. No one is arguing Neal wasn't terrible and that he completely missed the mark of what was expected. But he was during the season as well, and the team made the necessary adjustments to finish first overall in the West. The downfall was that the players who picked up the slack in the regular season - the top line, Tkachuk, Backlund, all the D, didn't do so in the POs. You could say that Neal's play didn't drop off in the POs because it was never up to begin with, whereas the vast majority of the rest of the team saw their levels of play drop significantly.
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Old 06-05-2019, 01:35 PM   #49
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Was there no mention of Hathaway? At the right price, he's a player I'd love to see back.
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Old 06-05-2019, 01:50 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by chedder View Post
Was there no mention of Hathaway? At the right price, he's a player I'd love to see back.
Tre talked about him a bit on the fan. Sounds like he wants him back.
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Old 06-05-2019, 02:03 PM   #51
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Was there no mention of Hathaway? At the right price, he's a player I'd love to see back.
Tre mentioned how they'd like to keep hathaway because he's a player they've developed.

Talked about giving him a shot in the AHL and how he put the work in as a player to get to the NHL.

IMO hathaway is a prototypical character player the organization covets. Him, Tkachuk and Hamonic were the guts of the roster this year IMO.
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How does the number of playoff games the Bruins won *this last season* have anything to do with their number of draft picks in the last three calendar years?
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Old 06-05-2019, 02:08 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Textcritic View Post

I will stand by the point of my simple argument above that an underperforming player on a high-cost contract is not ON HIS OWN enough to impede a team from winning the Stanley Cup. I don't know why Neal seemed too struggle as much as he did last year, and I am not about to make up reasons for his poor performance cobbled together from bits and soundbites reified in my own imagination. I continue to hope that he will be better next year, but am not expecting much. The situation is what it is, and there is not much to be done to fix it but to stay positive.
You're right, on his own Neal is not an insurmountable obstacle. But healthy scratching a $5.75 million winger is going to be a damn big problem exacerbated by paying your 9th D $3.5 million and carrying other dead buyout money against your cap.

I agree it gets tiring to talk and read about but unfortunately staying positive about it on CP in fact has no impact.

You deal with it like every other mistake. Figure out what the hell happened and learn from it. Which means one thing to fans, something else to Treliving and something entirely different to the Flames organization.
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Old 06-05-2019, 06:21 PM   #53
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Neal obviously sucked, that being said I am not sure what people expected Treliving to say or do. Unless he has a specific target in mind, they have to hold on for another year or so. In the meantime he does not need to devalue Neal even more with disparaging comments.
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Old 06-05-2019, 06:33 PM   #54
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I hate to be pedantic, but Michael Stone purportedly being the Flames' 9th defenseman down the stretch last season has no bearing on how he affects the future of this team. He will most likely be the team's 6th defenseman next season, with likely two others (Andersson and Valimaki) making near-minimum salaries. Additionally, he should not have been the Flames' 9th defenseman last year, considering that he was most likely better than the likes of Fantenberg, Kylington, and Prout, all three of whom are longshots return to the Flames to begin next season. Plus, Stone makes $3.5 million for only one more season, making his salary very easy to offload if necessary (which it should not be).

What will compound the Neal issue further is the lingering Brouwer buyout salary of $1.5 million and the potentially diminishing returns offered by Backlund and Giordano as they collectively cost over $12 million for the next three seasons.
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