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Old 05-04-2018, 05:06 PM   #721
Kybb79
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I remember a game in Bennets rookie season. They played him with Johnny and they looked awesome together. Sam was playing Centre. Imo this team failed the kid by brining in GG and his idiots to coach. Playing him with Brouwer was pathetic. Maybe Peters can turn his career around.
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Old 05-04-2018, 05:58 PM   #722
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Nah, 3rd line was where he fit and that was his line to take charge of. Remember he started the year at center behind Monahan and Backlund.



After he failed at center, Jankowski took over and on wing there was no room on the top 6. Ferland had 20 goals on top line and why break up the 3M line. Unfortunately Jagr didn't pan out and Versteeg got hurt. Hathaway is a big drop off.


After Bennett “failed” at centre, he stepped up and gave Jankowski a significantly better winger than He himself got to play with as a centre.

Bennett and Jankowski were the only NHL quality players in our bottom 6 last year until Lazar finally started getting into the lineup regularly and improved his game to that of a 4th line player. Sadly, all 3 of them were saddled with talent-draining veterans who sank our team all year long.

The way Treliving structured the bottom 6 last year was beyond horrific. He not only filled it with awful veterans, but he stifled his youth’s development by making them play with those veterans.

Gulutzan did Bennett, Jankowski and Lazar no favours in sticking them with those veterans - but he undoubtedly knew he couldn’t play any of those veterans up the line-up as they’d break what was (mostly) working with the top two lines.

Asking young developing players like Bennett and Jankowski to be able to drag scrubs like Hathaway, Brouwer, Versteeg, Stajan, Stewart, Glass, and Freddie Hamilton up and down the ice and expecting them to produce is ridiculous. Talk about setting people up for failure.

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Old 05-04-2018, 07:01 PM   #723
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I think Bennett will be fine. A few players will be better next season.
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Old 05-05-2018, 10:30 AM   #724
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After Bennett “failed” at centre, he stepped up and gave Jankowski a significantly better winger than He himself got to play with as a centre.
Really needs to be emphasised. For the vast majority of the season I don't think Jankowski either

a) Outplayed his linemate Bennett, 4 goal Vegas-no-show game aside
b) Showed anything at center that Bennett hasn't shown.

Personally I felt Jankowski had more defensive/transition/distribution struggles at C than Bennett. What Jankowski had was a linemate who was doing something offensively, and for a while even two when Jagr was around and then Hathaway had the temporary midas touch. Jankowski got a lot of "rookie" leeway despite being further along in his development.

One thing both players really struggled with was utilizing cross-ice passing to generate offense, especially on the rush. It's baffling that two very nice passers like these two had seemingly fewer cross-ice assists than Garnet Hathaway did - I can't help but see some issue in the messaging. I feel as a team last year we would rather have 3-4 shots with the goalie set than one dangerous chance backdoor on a goalie and it wasn't a player issue.
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Old 05-05-2018, 10:49 AM   #725
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It is all a confidence issue with Bennett. He has the tools to be a dominant top 6 player but his belief in himself is shot and he is trying too hard to live up to expectations. He needs to just go out there and have fun first with some skilled linemates and it will fall into place for him. I really think if Bennett is traded we are going to look back in a few years and really regret it.
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Old 05-05-2018, 10:57 AM   #726
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If they don't bring anyone else in up front, I think it makes the most sense to play Jankowski and Bennett with Tkachuk.

If that clicks and they all play to their potential, that should be a hell of a second line. That line really should click. All the pieces for a successful scoring line are there.

Backlund and Frolik might not score as much, but put Brouwer with them, and that should be a very good shutdown line.

Backlund with a high end offensive winger is a 50 point two way centremen. Without, he's still a 40 point two way guy.

And if Tkachuk can turn Jankowski and Bennett into 50 point guys, the Flames have something.
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Old 05-05-2018, 11:03 AM   #727
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Backlund with a high end offensive winger is a 50 point two way centremen. Without, he's still a 40 point two way guy..
It's funny, Tkachuk gets all the credit for Backlund finally breaking 50 a few years back but 2016 Backlund had the same number of ES points with Colborne/Bennett as the winger - with less icetime - as 2017 Backlund. The difference came on the PP, where PP2 had Giordano, Hamilton, and rookie Tkachuk giving our second unit some firepower. By taking those three off PP2 to patch up PP1 we basically had Backlund have his worst season since 2012.
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Old 05-05-2018, 11:57 AM   #728
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^ Baertschi was a good prospect for the Flames, but "blue chip"?
Circa 2012? I would say so. He was a 13th overall pick, who'd just posted 2.0 ppg with Portland, and 3 goals in 5GP with the Flames. We voted him our #2 prospect in the summer of 2013, behind Monahan. Had we had the poll in 2012, I'm confident he would been voted in at #1.
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Old 05-05-2018, 06:39 PM   #729
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Baertschi was mismanaged by coaching staff.
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Old 05-05-2018, 07:46 PM   #730
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Baertschi was mismanaged by coaching staff.
He wanted the Oiler treatment of unwarranted NHL time when really he needed more time in the minors.
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Old 05-05-2018, 11:46 PM   #731
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If they don't bring anyone else in up front, I think it makes the most sense to play Jankowski and Bennett with Tkachuk.

If that clicks and they all play to their potential, that should be a hell of a second line. That line really should click. All the pieces for a successful scoring line are there.

Backlund and Frolik might not score as much, but put Brouwer with them, and that should be a very good shutdown line.

Backlund with a high end offensive winger is a 50 point two way centremen. Without, he's still a 40 point two way guy.

And if Tkachuk can turn Jankowski and Bennett into 50 point guys, the Flames have something.
I still remember a shift they had together against Nashville and Jankowski scored on, what I consider, one of the nicest goals of the season. Tic-tac-toe Bennett to Tkachuk, Tkachuk to Janko.

https://www.nhl.com/flames/video/jan...092/c-57858403

I feel there is already a bit of chemistry in the making with these 3.

It's going to be interesting how the forward situation shakes out. There won't be any top 9 spots available if we aquire another forward and don't ship anyone out. Makes it hard to see players like Foo, Dube or Mangiapane have a chance to make the team unless we want to bring them in and play them on the 4th line (I think Dube would thrive in that situation but am unsure about the other 2).

Gaudreau-Monahan-______
Bennett-Jankowski-Tkachuk
Ferland-Backlund-Frolik
Lazar-Shore-Hathaway

I really don't know how Brouwer fits on the team moving forward..
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Old 05-06-2018, 12:00 AM   #732
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I still remember a shift they had together against Nashville and Jankowski scored on, what I consider, one of the nicest goals of the season. Tic-tac-toe Bennett to Tkachuk, Tkachuk to Janko.

https://www.nhl.com/flames/video/jan...092/c-57858403

I feel there is already a bit of chemistry in the making with these 3.

It's going to be interesting how the forward situation shakes out. There won't be any top 9 spots available if we aquire another forward and don't ship anyone out. Makes it hard to see players like Foo, Dube or Mangiapane have a chance to make the team unless we want to bring them in and play them on the 4th line (I think Dube would thrive in that situation but am unsure about the other 2).

Gaudreau-Monahan-______
Bennett-Jankowski-Tkachuk
Ferland-Backlund-Frolik
Lazar-Shore-Hathaway

I really don't know how Brouwer fits on the team moving forward..
For all of the Ferland love, Brouwer was basically Ferland’s career year this year statistically until Gulutzan coached him
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Old 05-06-2018, 02:06 AM   #733
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He wanted the Oiler treatment of unwarranted NHL time when really he needed more time in the minors.
Okay. So they send him down to minors to fix him. Similar problem going on with Bennett? I'm really positive on the idea that the new coach will make a difference in these players with stats and what should have been building blocks for the Flames creating a catalyst for a team with breadth for many successful seasons. Not casting them away like Baertschi. That trade was a total bust.
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Old 05-06-2018, 08:23 AM   #734
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Okay. So they send him down to minors to fix him. Similar problem going on with Bennett? I'm really positive on the idea that the new coach will make a difference in these players with stats and what should have been building blocks for the Flames creating a catalyst for a team with breadth for many successful seasons. Not casting them away like Baertschi. That trade was a total bust.
He asked to be moved.

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Old 05-06-2018, 08:52 AM   #735
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Okay. So they send him down to minors to fix him. Similar problem going on with Bennett? I'm really positive on the idea that the new coach will make a difference in these players with stats and what should have been building blocks for the Flames creating a catalyst for a team with breadth for many successful seasons. Not casting them away like Baertschi. That trade was a total bust.
He was traded for Andersson. How was that a bust?
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Old 05-06-2018, 09:00 AM   #736
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The point I was making, was that we've handled Baertschi and Bennett very differently, and the OP said we mismanaged both.

We tried to make Baertschi play his way through the ranks, having him go back to the WHL for his draft+1, then in the AHL in his drafts+2 and +3, when it was apparent he wasn't NHL-ready. He requested a trade due to lack of NHL opportunity.

With Bennett, it's nearly the opposite. For 2 seasons now, it has looked like he could use 1st-line time in the minors to find his game, and gain some offensive confidence. Despite that, he's been kept on the NHL roster and has primarily played a middle-six role.

We took 2 very different approaches with these 2 players, and the OP argued that we were wrong each time. So I was asking, what is the proper way to develop young blue chip prospects then?

You can't just gift them time on the top line when you're trying to compete and they haven't earned it. That is what the Oilers do.
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Old 05-06-2018, 10:35 AM   #737
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I would say the make or break point has already passed. At this point you just hope his game rounds out enough that he's a + third line asset for the team for a couple seasons. If he somehow found a scoring niche it would be gravy but I haven't seen anything from Bennett in so long to even give that notion weight.
He's already a 3rd line asset. Just a marginal improvement and he would be a great 3rd liner. And a couple seasons? From a 21 year old?

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Nobody cares if it's fair or not... the fact is that he's at a point where statistically speaking most players don't get dramatically better.

As for the Taylor Hall argument saying that he got better after 250 games.

First 246 games (4 seasons) - 0.91ppg
Next 283 games (including this season) - 0.88ppg
Career 0.90ppg

Even if you include this years insane season, he got statistically worse after his first 250 games.
Here's another statistic: he is 21.

And 21 is a point from where the vast majority of players do get better.
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Old 05-06-2018, 10:57 AM   #738
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The point I was making, was that we've handled Baertschi and Bennett very differently, and the OP said we mismanaged both.

We tried to make Baertschi play his way through the ranks, having him go back to the WHL for his draft+1, then in the AHL in his drafts+2 and +3, when it was apparent he wasn't NHL-ready. He requested a trade due to lack of NHL opportunity.

With Bennett, it's nearly the opposite. For 2 seasons now, it has looked like he could use 1st-line time in the minors to find his game, and gain some offensive confidence. Despite that, he's been kept on the NHL roster and has primarily played a middle-six role.

We took 2 very different approaches with these 2 players, and the OP argued that we were wrong each time. So I was asking, what is the proper way to develop young blue chip prospects then?

You can't just gift them time on the top line when you're trying to compete and they haven't earned it. That is what the Oilers do.
Your last line kind of says it all.

The organizational failing is what plagued the development of both Baertschi and Bennett. They happened in different ways because players are different, but the root cause is the same: As prospects, they were both on an island.

Baertschi is the ultimate 7 in a sea of 3s. His contemporaries were guys like Nemisz, Reinhart, Cundari, Hanowski, Horak. Sven happened to be the warmest body in a group that was collectively cold. But, Feaster had his 'marching orders' from Murray Edwards that the team was to 'compete', so Baertschi became part of the Rock Solid Plan™. Hartley, aka, the worst coach Cory Sarich ever had, helped ruin Baertschi as a prsopect. A major contributing factor in that was the lack of any other prospects to take the heat off Baertschi, and the insistent pressure from ownership relayed down through his good friend the GM to 'win now'.

Instead of being able to cycle several forward prospects into the lineup to see who stuck, the organization was relying on Baertschi to help them compete at a time when he shouldn't have been shouldering any of that burden.

Spoiled by the incredible success of recent draftee Monahan, Bennett was similarly ruined. The rush to get him into the lineup wasn't for his development, it was to help the team be competitive. The between the lines criticism here is there weren't any other prospects in the system other than 18 year old sam bennett that could possibly have contributed to the team winning. Activate him after an entire season of inactivity! Burn a year of his contract to get him into the lineup! Have his first major taste of pro hockey be in a rivalry playoff series!

Coming in and immediately scoring goals was the worst thing that could've happened to both Baertschi and Bennett. Eyes went wide in the Calgary Flames C-Suite, I'm sure.

Not hard to outcompete David Wolf and Corban Knight for icetime if you're 18 year old Sam Bennett, but that doesn't mean you belong on the roster. When the expectations are to make the playoffs every year, regardless of how terrible your team, you do things that aren't in the best interest of the organization or the player in the long term, you drop that unprepared player into the lineup and have them sink or swim.

Make the playoffs. Try to compete. Even if Roman Cervenka is your second line Centre, make the playoffs.
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Old 05-06-2018, 11:03 AM   #739
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While on the topic of Statistics, here is Bennett's career numbers before and after Dec 28th 2016 (a specific date when Frolik replaced him on PP2 for no particular reason other than media articles being written about how Frolik wasn't on the PP):

Pre: 115GP 27G 28A (or 19G / 20A per 82GP)
Post: 126GP 15G 19A (or 9G / 12A per 82GP)

Even if people want to say Bennett "is what he is" the fact that his career has been split into two such distinct halves suggests that we don't know which "what he is" that he is. I fear there may have been permanent damage if Gulutzan's approach to development may have been to remove all the skilled aspects to focus on being a solid 3rd/4th liner and killed any PP confidence he used to have (the last PP goal I can even remember him scoring was in that first half, where Bennett has the puck on the left circle and uses a Tkachuk screen to absolutely snipe a wrister. Haven't seen Bennett do a thing on the PP since then outside of cleanup duty). But until we see him under Peters we don't know.
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Old 05-06-2018, 12:22 PM   #740
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Your last line kind of says it all.

The organizational failing is what plagued the development of both Baertschi and Bennett. They happened in different ways because players are different, but the root cause is the same: As prospects, they were both on an island.


The organization has to take some responsibility, I do believe they miscalculated in thinking Bennett was ready to handle the transition to center, which was probably too much on his plate (too soon). I also wonder if Tkachuk had been saddled with Brouwer during his development if he would be having some of the same issues? If anything Tkachuk might not have been as effective; Part of being an antagonist is especially effective in the role that he plays with Backlund and Frolik. Tkachuk flourishes with confidence and might not have handled the transition as well developing with less skilled players. Playing with Backlund and Frolik has helped Tkachuk play more to his strengths.

Therein lies the problem; In hindsight Bennett probably should have spent time one of the top 2 lines in the minors and then continued his development from there. His time on the 3rd line really has not allowed him to play to his strengths and like Tkachuk he needs to play with skilled players. Agree rewarding players top line minutes is not the best way to develop them, Tkachuk was very lucky to have the benefit of being sheltered on that second line.
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