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Old 11-15-2019, 08:25 AM   #2521
CliffFletcher
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Yeah, the whole "Hockey IQ" thing has always always seemed like a canard to me. It is a recent catchphrase that has caught on in current parlance and I've always felt that it is suspect at best when it comes to describing players.
Hockey IQ encompass vision, anticipation, and reading the play. From a recent article in the Athletic on Guy Carbonneau:

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“He had tremendous hockey sense,” LaFontaine said. “Because he was an offensive player too, he knew the instincts of other players. He was strong on the faceoffs. He would know probably patterns of where guys would go. And you know, he didn’t necessarily have to shadow you all the time, but he knew where to be at the right place at the right time.”

...“Maybe he had to do that in the playoffs against Wayne, but for the most part, he didn’t shadow,” Sakic said. “He was just smart and knew how to play, and play the right way. I mean, if you gave him an opportunity, he would go the other way as well. It’s not as if he would just sit there and played a checking role and followed you around. Could he do that? Absolutely. But he was just so smart.

“I don’t think you can be a shutdown defensive centreman or any shutdown (player) unless you’ve got a great IQ and an understanding of reading the plays, and he was one of the best at that.”
So Pat Lafontaine and Joe Sakic think hockey IQ is a real thing.
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Old 11-15-2019, 08:55 AM   #2522
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I think Sam Bennett is what he is ... probably an average to maybe above average third liner.

The value has already eroded, but you have to give them a nod for patience given the asset value they started with.

Any one in the bottom six is replaceable, and you can certainly move on when you wish, but this isn't the issue with the Flames nor the most pressing asset decision they have to make.

Don't get the lightning rod to be honest.
You don't get an attaboy in a zero sum business for holding onto an extremely valuable asset until it's turned toxic. There's no 'nod' to give to watching bennett put up 3 straight sub 30 point seasons and not trying to capitalize on his draft pedigree and get an upgrade on him. That's what a bad GM does; hold onto a player long after his value has declined.

You get attaboys for correctly determining the value and likelihood of a player turning into what you thought you were getting, and moving him for value when it doesn't look like he'll be that player. Good organizations cut bait, bad organizations hold on because good organizations can evaluate talent effectively and bad ones can't.

You trade David Rundblad for a first rounder. You trade Cam Barker for an elite prospect. You trade Erik Johnson for an elite prospect.

You don't hold onto Yakupov.

With the addition of Lucic, the Flames have committed to a 4th line left wing for term and salary. Unfortunately, 4th line left wing is where Bennett should be so there's a logjam. I know you won't agree, but 2 years ago you didn't agree that Bennett was an average 3rd liner either and now it's something 'most of us' see. Well, some of 'us' arrived at this conclusion awhile ago and others resisted it for years at this point.

The Flames should be actively trying to move Bennett and a combination of other assets right now to address the massive second line RW/C deficiency in the lineup. They should try to capitalize on whatever league wild value Bennett is perceived to have at this point, because other than taking penalties, several absolute backbreakers, he's not having much of an impact on the actual games.

The Flames have already held on too long to get a major bluechipper back. That was the original point of this thread. I don't want the thrust of this thread to be "the Flames held on too long to count sam bennett as a positive asset at all" which is probably the case in another sub 30 point season that sees him finish top 10-20 in minor penalties at 13 minutes a game.
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How does the number of playoff games the Bruins won *this last season* have anything to do with their number of draft picks in the last three calendar years?
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Old 11-15-2019, 08:58 AM   #2523
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The people who saw him as the best skater in the playoffs still aren’t wrong.

Carry on
This is what worries me about the Flames. If Sam Bennett is your best skater come playoff time, you're not going to last long. Case in point; four game sweep vs the Ducks & five games vs the Avalanche.
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Old 11-15-2019, 09:02 AM   #2524
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Originally Posted by Flash Walken View Post
You don't get an attaboy in a zero sum business for holding onto an extremely valuable asset until it's turned toxic. There's no 'nod' to give to watching bennett put up 3 straight sub 30 point seasons and not trying to capitalize on his draft pedigree and get an upgrade on him. That's what a bad GM does; hold onto a player long after his value has declined.

You get attaboys for correctly determining the value and likelihood of a player turning into what you thought you were getting, and moving him for value when it doesn't look like he'll be that player. Good organizations cut bait, bad organizations hold on because good organizations can evaluate talent effectively and bad ones can't.

You trade David Rundblad for a first rounder. You trade Cam Barker for an elite prospect. You trade Erik Johnson for an elite prospect.

You don't hold onto Yakupov.

With the addition of Lucic, the Flames have committed to a 4th line left wing for term and salary. Unfortunately, 4th line left wing is where Bennett should be so there's a logjam. I know you won't agree, but 2 years ago you didn't agree that Bennett was an average 3rd liner either and now it's something 'most of us' see. Well, some of 'us' arrived at this conclusion awhile ago and others resisted it for years at this point.

The Flames should be actively trying to move Bennett and a combination of other assets right now to address the massive second line RW/C deficiency in the lineup. They should try to capitalize on whatever league wild value Bennett is perceived to have at this point, because other than taking penalties, several absolute backbreakers, he's not having much of an impact on the actual games.

The Flames have already held on too long to get a major bluechipper back. That was the original point of this thread. I don't want the thrust of this thread to be "the Flames held on too long to count sam bennett as a positive asset at all" which is probably the case in another sub 30 point season that sees him finish top 10-20 in minor penalties at 13 minutes a game.
You can certainly think that way.

It's a pretty cut and dried (and depressing) way to look at things in my mind.

The Flames are trying to win now, and have been for a few years. Trading their 7th best forward out of some doctrine for futures in a window doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Beyond that ... you don't find words like toxic a little over the top?
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Old 11-15-2019, 09:03 AM   #2525
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Bennett is a bust for sure, however as a player on this team we need more from him and he has a role. If he starts doing his role that is
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Old 11-15-2019, 09:10 AM   #2526
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You can certainly think that way.

It's a pretty cut and dried (and depressing) way to look at things in my mind.

The Flames are trying to win now, and have been for a few years. Trading their 7th best forward out of some doctrine for futures in a window doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Beyond that ... you don't find words like toxic a little over the top?
I'm not saying futures, I'm talking about winning now.

You aren't going to get significant futures for Bennett at this point because the flames have held on too long for that. But you could probably package Bennett with some futures and get back a very good middle 6 winger or centre to help address the obvious deficiency which Bennett isn't helping you with.

That boat has sailed. Bennett is not going to be a top 6 forward which is what they drafted him to be and where they are desperate at this point for assistance. So use Bennett while you still can to get that player and help your team win now.

I don't think Bennett is a toxic asset, I'm saying move him before he becomes one. The clock is ticking on his value. He's worth less today than he was on June 27th and the flames desperation for a top 6 player has only gotten worse.

I don't want to package him with a 1st round pick next year to get a player, I want to package him with a 2nd round pick this year to get a player.
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How does the number of playoff games the Bruins won *this last season* have anything to do with their number of draft picks in the last three calendar years?
https://streamable.com/dcxaz
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Old 11-15-2019, 09:12 AM   #2527
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If we forget about his draft position and expecting him to have a Draisitl like breakthrough he's actually a decent 3rd liner that does that right things come playoff time. Not like we gave him an Oiler special 7x7 and his salary is on par with his production and spot on the roster. The guy takes zero crap from the opposition and there's no way for me to know for sure but seems like a great team mate. He also gives an honest effort most nights which is more that can be said about certain players that make a greater salary and takes less of a beating by the fanbase.
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Old 11-15-2019, 09:15 AM   #2528
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I don't mean to harp on this point but has Sam Bennett decided he doesn't fight anymore? I don't remember the last time I saw him get in a scrap. Did he fight in the playoffs or does it go back to the regular season last year? I'm not a pro-fighting guy necessarily but it is an aspect of the game that Sam used at times to intimidate the other team. I wouldn't mind seeing him clobber someone soon.
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Old 11-15-2019, 09:18 AM   #2529
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He ran over MacEachren pretty good the other night, but fighting overall is almost non existent so I think its more of the opportunity has yet to really present itself.
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Old 11-15-2019, 09:24 AM   #2530
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A guy drafted 4th overall in hopes of ending up as your elite #1 C, who instead turns into a 3rd or 4th line grinding winger, is a bust in my books.

Massive disappointment, especially since C is one of the glaring weaknesses on this roster.
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Old 11-15-2019, 09:26 AM   #2531
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Why would anyone fight when lucic is on the roster ?
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How does the number of playoff games the Bruins won *this last season* have anything to do with their number of draft picks in the last three calendar years?
https://streamable.com/dcxaz
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Old 11-15-2019, 09:41 AM   #2532
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Why would anyone fight when lucic is on the roster ?
I dunno - when something happens to them or a line mate that they don’t like and Lucic is on the bench?
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Old 11-15-2019, 09:42 AM   #2533
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Next week Sam bennett will be seen as useful again. Enough with this rollercoaster. Hes not going anywhere soon.
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Old 11-15-2019, 10:21 AM   #2534
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Next week Sam bennett will be seen as useful again. Enough with this rollercoaster. Hes not going anywhere soon.
If Sam Bennett is a rollercoaster, then this is the longest descent in rollercoaster history with no climb in sight
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Old 11-15-2019, 10:30 AM   #2535
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Bennett needs to be scratched for a few games. Whatever positive aspects he might bring are negated by the guaranteed minor penalty he takes every game. I don't think he's a lost cause, but he clearly still thinks of himself as a 1st liner in waiting, he needs to change his approach.
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Old 11-15-2019, 10:42 AM   #2536
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A guy drafted 4th overall in hopes of ending up as your elite #1 C, who instead turns into a 3rd or 4th line grinding winger, is a bust in my books.

Massive disappointment, especially since C is one of the glaring weaknesses on this roster.
I have different definition of bust. A bust is a guy that never makes it or finds a useful role and falls out of the league. Yakupov type guys.

Bennett will play for a very long time, but definitely a disappointment relative to draft pedigree.
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Old 11-15-2019, 10:46 AM   #2537
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Why would anyone fight when lucic is on the roster ?
Because he doesn't?

He had penalties in his first 3 games, and only one of the last 16.

I get the argument that everyone in the world is now scared of pushing the Flames around because Lucic is on the roster, but it's not playing out that way.

Lucic's days of being an exceptional intimidating factor have subsided. He'll still get involved, but no one is deathly scared of him.

It certainly won't stop Bennett from playing with an edge, nor should it.

But I'm sure that Peter's is trying to curb stupid penalties that leave the Flames shorthanded.
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Old 11-15-2019, 11:04 AM   #2538
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I have different definition of bust. A bust is a guy that never makes it or finds a useful role and falls out of the league. Yakupov type guys.

Bennett will play for a very long time, but definitely a disappointment relative to draft pedigree.
Yeah that's me as well, but I'm seeing I'm in the minority.

I think Rico Fata was a bust as he played three seasons and was gone. Pavel Brendl was a bust for sure ... highly touted didn't stick. Peter Tatiteck, top ten pick that didn't play. Bust.

I don't see a guy like Chucko as a bust, but a bad draft pick.

Bennett is a day in day out contributing NHLer so I don't see that as a bust, but as I say, I seem to be somewhat alone in that.
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Old 11-15-2019, 11:15 AM   #2539
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Bennett's career
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Old 11-15-2019, 11:19 AM   #2540
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Bennett's career
Jesus, I get that you may not like the guy, but I don't think euthanizing him is the solution to his on ice problems...
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