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Old 05-13-2021, 12:06 PM   #6081
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The OECD average for sales (VAT) tax is 19%.



If Alberta instituted a 10 per cent HST, we’d still be lower than most provinces and the great majority of developed countries.
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Old 05-13-2021, 12:07 PM   #6082
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1) Median income in Calgary is 102k. I'm not sure if anyone's humblebragging at 100k income.

2) Personally, I don't mind paying taxes, but I mind when everything they offer is means-tested. I'm supportive of carbon tax, but I was not supportive of Notley's rebate program that gave more than their fair share of money back to low-income individuals (ie. a wealth re-distribution program). Consistent to that statement, I'm very supportive of the Liberal carbon tax - where there is a universal rebate and is a pure policy incentive.

It's a bit telling that there's people that think 100k income is "rich" and can "pay for whatever they want". Basically, if Notley can unite this group with the middle class people in that 100-150k range, then that's a solid base to win from.

However, to the_only_turek_fan - I will say that the UCP just raised your income taxes over the next 4 years due to the fact that they are no longer indexing the brackets. I wouldn't be fooled by the rhetoric that UCP is the party that won't raise taxes while the NDP is the party that will raise your taxes.

1) yeah, that was a little tongue in cheek

2) I don't mind paying taxes either, I'm fully supportive of raising taxes provided they don't disproportionately hit low income earners. Which, at the risk of humble bragging, is definitely not me.

I'm 100% okay with paying more than my "fair share" (on another note, I freaking hate that "fair share"), that's how it should be, people that benefit from how our society is set up, should contribute more back.

Health Premiums: Absolutely not. All that does is make it harder for low income earners to access an essential service

PST: Sure, but we need to make sure it doesn't hit low income earners the hardest. If it's a blanket x% on everything, then people who have no disposable income just lost x% of their spending power for essential goods, so we can't be taxing groceries and the like.

Carbon tax: I'm honestly okay with either model. If one of them means I pay a little more and get a little less back, but low income earners aren't concerned about turning up the head when it's -20, I'm okay with that. It's not going to be perfect. There are options that are better than others though.
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Old 05-13-2021, 12:08 PM   #6083
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If Alberta instituted a 10 per cent HST, we’d still be lower than most provinces and the great majority of developed countries.
Not to mention the lowest and only single digit corporate tax rate in the country:
https://www.bennettjones.com/Blogs-S...fective-July-1

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Old 05-13-2021, 12:46 PM   #6084
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I think we probably need a sales tax in Alberta. My strong preference would be HST. GST is already in place so no extra bureaucracy, already excludes groceries, already has a rebate system for low income folks. Plus, we'd get a big one-time harmonization payment from the feds. Use that to help fill in the covid-19 related budget hole.
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Old 05-13-2021, 12:50 PM   #6085
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Health Premiums: Absolutely not. All that does is make it harder for low income earners to access an essential service
From what I recall, these used to be paid mostly by your employer for the most part, and people below a certain threshold would fill out a form and have the premiums forgiven- When Klein got rid of them I thought it was a break for everyone, but business' that paid their employees premiums probably got the biggest break- I could be wrong though. Even if you didn't pay, you couldn't be denied healthcare though
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Old 05-13-2021, 12:50 PM   #6086
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Health Premiums: Absolutely not. All that does is make it harder for low income earners to access an essential service
I dunno, I'm okay with health premiums in theory. Firstly, it provides a major direct source of revenue for an industry that does need capital to maintain. Secondly, it discourages people from abusing the system - you're not wasting medical staffs' time for stuff like a stubbed toe (and yes, people come in for ANYTHING - and I've seen this at the Sheldon Chumir more than once); this frees up staff time to focus on cases of more need and also de-clogs the waiting times. Lastly, the fee doesn't have to be outrageous - $5-10 a visit - enough to discourage excessive visits, but affordable enough for checkups, higher attention issues, etc.

Similar to bus passes and those new Kananaskis park passes, you could also make it free for low income earners if need be.

Just my two cents!
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Old 05-13-2021, 12:54 PM   #6087
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This is such a good post.

As bad as the UCP is, the NDP is a non starter for me because of the reasons stated above.

If they promise to leave tax rates alone or even consider cutting them I would consider Notley.
If you’re making the same income, you’re paying more tax under the UCP than you would have under the NDP plan with holding tax rates and de-indexing the deductions.

If you’re a student you’re getting outright ####ed with the elimination of tuition and education tax credits.

I honestly don’t think the ‘tax and spend’ worriers have been paying attention the past couple years.
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Old 05-13-2021, 12:59 PM   #6088
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I dunno, I'm okay with health premiums in theory. Firstly, it provides a major direct source of revenue for an industry that does need capital to maintain. Secondly, it discourages people from abusing the system - you're not wasting medical staffs' time for stuff like a stubbed toe (and yes, people come in for ANYTHING - and I've seen this at the Sheldon Chumir more than once); this frees up staff time to focus on cases of more need and also de-clogs the waiting times. Lastly, the fee doesn't have to be outrageous - $5-10 a visit - enough to discourage excessive visits, but affordable enough for checkups, higher attention issues, etc.
Small user fees like you describe aren't the same as health premiums. The Alberta Health Premiums were formerly a flat tax paid annually regardless of how much or how little you personally used the healthcare system. They were just a regressive tax in disguise: high-income people paid the same amount as low-income people, and those with good jobs with decent benefits typically had their premiums paid for them by their employer whereas people with crappy jobs with bad (or no) benefits had to pay out of pocket. The premiums were in effect an extra tax on those who could least afford to pay it, and Alberta was right to get rid of them.

If the healthcare system needs more funding, then it should come from general government revenue that can be collected progressively. Let's not return to the regressive tax of health premiums.
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Old 05-13-2021, 01:01 PM   #6089
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Originally Posted by MarchHare View Post
Small user fees like you describe aren't the same as health premiums. The Alberta Health Premiums were formerly a flat tax paid annually regardless of how much or how little you personally used the healthcare system. They were just a regressive tax in disguise: high-income people paid the same amount as low-income people, and those with good jobs with decent benefits typically had their premiums paid for them by their employer whereas people with crappy jobs with bad (or no) benefits had to pay out of pocket. The premiums were in effect an extra tax on those who could least afford to pay it, and Alberta was right to get rid of them.

If the healthcare system needs more funding, then it should come from general government revenue that can be collected progressively. Let's not return to the regressive tax of health premiums.
Yes, I meant user fees. My bad.
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Old 05-13-2021, 01:18 PM   #6090
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I think we probably need a sales tax in Alberta. My strong preference would be HST. GST is already in place so no extra bureaucracy, already excludes groceries, already has a rebate system for low income folks. Plus, we'd get a big one-time harmonization payment from the feds. Use that to help fill in the covid-19 related budget hole.
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Old 05-13-2021, 01:27 PM   #6091
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Conservation has moved on a bit because of all the UCP shenanigans today but my interview with Jespersen on the "Conservation" Pass

My piece that prompted the interview: https://www.zentravellers.com/kanana...ervation-pass/

Interview:

Starts @ 1:03


Tweet thread that I did afterwards while thinking about it w/ some thoughts we didn't get to in the interview:
https://twitter.com/user/status/1392545804951322625

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Old 05-13-2021, 02:39 PM   #6092
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You implement it the same way as the GST. You give rebates to low income earners, and exclude essentials(I think the GST misses the mark on this, but that's another story). But the goal is you don't make it a burden at all on low income, and the rebates can be high enough that it functions as income support and yes, a minor wealth transfer.

If you're low income, rebates aren't as helpful since you likely don't have the capacity to just float expenses somehow until your rebate check comes.
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Old 05-13-2021, 02:55 PM   #6093
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I hate using these dudes as a source, but they seem to have a pulse on the internal happenings of the UCP at times:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1392936247207686146
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Old 05-13-2021, 04:34 PM   #6094
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Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan View Post
This is such a good post.

As bad as the UCP is, the NDP is a non starter for me because of the reasons stated above.

If they promise to leave tax rates alone or even consider cutting them I would consider Notley.
You should really do the math on progressive income taxation. I pay lower income taxes since moving to BC because of their progressive taxation. It's not until you're making over $140k/year that the needle moves, and it's a marginal difference between $140k and $200k, like on the order of less than $1000 for the most part.

Median household income in Calgary is around $100k, so maybe a pretty chart will convince people that they're getting played by conservative taxation policies.

Nevermind the fact that on the whole you're costs have gone up considerably since the UCP took over.
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Old 05-13-2021, 06:06 PM   #6095
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I hate using these dudes as a source, but they seem to have a pulse on the internal happenings of the UCP at times:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1392936247207686146
Jason is holding a voice vote to kick the guy out of caucus who said Kenney should be fired because they are not sure they would be able to boot him out with a secret ballot. Impressive display of the influence he has on the party he leads. Cabinet has been whipped as well, so it looks like they will boot out this batch of dissidents by the slimmest of margins.
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Old 05-13-2021, 07:51 PM   #6096
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Haha what a ####ing clown show this party is, apparently done by not-so-secret text message to Nik Milliken too.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1393019491580203010
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Old 05-13-2021, 08:01 PM   #6097
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Loewen was just begging to be booted from caucus with that letter, and he made the calculated move that getting Kenney to boot him out would look better in the eyes of his base than resigning from caucus of his own volition. The wackadoodle Wild Rose faction of the party is basically daring Jason Kenney to move the party further to the right or "divide the right", but either way they want him to wear the decision so that none of them have to answer for it specifically. Either way they get what they want and Kenney gets the blame.

I feel all sorts of schadenfreude. It'll be interesting to see if (when?) more of the 18 "anti-lockdown" dissenters goad Kenney into kicking them out too.
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Old 05-13-2021, 09:14 PM   #6098
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If they promise to leave tax rates alone or even consider cutting them I would consider Notley.
This and some sort of high level metric to keep deficit spending pegged to some amount. I had more than a few "Can you at least try?" moments when reviewing NDP budget announcements.
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Old 05-14-2021, 08:06 AM   #6099
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Do people even know what a corporation pays in taxes provincially? I don't want to give my numbers publicly, but I'm telling you guys...it's really really low.
In your situation, sure. Depends quite a lot on the corporation and how much money it makes. If it's a CCPC with less than 500k of income, its tax rate will be relatively low. If it's a corporation that chooses to bonus out all of its income, well, then it has no income to tax, but the recipients of the money are paying the tax instead. And on and on through a thousand different permutations and situations, all of them different.

Conversations about tax policy in this thread always seem pointless. Someone like Locke can come in and explain the various permutations to everyone but we'll just be back where we started in a week as if nothing ever happened.
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Old 05-14-2021, 08:19 AM   #6100
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You might say it’s all a bit of semantics, really.
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