AltaGuy has a magnetic personality and exudes positive energy, which is infectious to those around him. He has an unparalleled ability to communicate with people, whether he is speaking to a room of three or an arena of 30,000.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: At le pub...
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The simple problem with the "Hamas vs Israel Gov" equation to me is the power imbalance. One is a thoroughly modern state with a world top-five military. Hamas is... Really, really poor. Evil, racist, and generally unhelpful for those like me who strongly feel the Palestinians have been persecuted against for decades, but ultimately poor, isolated, and pathetic.
As ever when these cycles jump up into the news once again, I'll point out that Israel has done zero constructive acts since the last time it was in the news cycle - they've continued entrenching and expanding settlements, eating away at East Jerusalem, and taking water. As the side with 99% of the power in this conflict, I'll hold them accountable first.
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It seems to me, and this is almost certainly an oversimplification but here it is anyway, that the core of the problem is that neither side is actually disincentivized to kill innocent people on the other side. There's only political upside to it.
Hamas indiscriminately fires its rockets with a goal of random slaughter, which provokes an inevitable response from the Israeli government, who absolutely must retaliate in order to appease the people who keep them in power. That inevitable retaliation, of course, is the true goal of the initial attacks that provoked it, because more dead people in Gaza is only good news for Hamas - it just increases their influence. So why would either side stop doing what it's doing?
I do generally agree with your statement here.
I will point out that only one side of this conflict regularly text messages the residents of the opposing sides giving them an evacuation warning if they intend to attack their neighbourhood/building due to a perceived threat.
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I will point out that only one side of this conflict regularly text messages the residents of the opposing sides giving them an evacuation warning if they intend to attack their neighbourhood/building due to a perceived threat.
Israel is no saint, I'll grant that, but literally nothing excuses sending indiscriminate rocket and drone attacks into civilian areas.
Hamas literally does this to get the heavy reprisal from Israel and drum up exactly this sort of support internationally. They're the real scum here and the poor Gazans are the ones who generally pay the price. Israel has no choice but to hit back, and Hamas has all of their infrastructure in civilian areas of the strip intentionally. How Gazans still support Hamas is beyond me
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I will point out that only one side of this conflict regularly text messages the residents of the opposing sides giving them an evacuation warning if they intend to attack their neighbourhood/building due to a perceived threat.
And to be fair, only one side has the capability to specifically target certain buildings, and still chooses to target civilian buildings in populated cities. Speaking of, this is not very becoming of a liberal democracy:
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Media offices have been bombed and Palestinian and international journalists arrested, beaten and threatened by Israeli forces amid escalating violence in Gaza. The International Federation of Journalists (IFJ) stands in solidarity with the Palestinian Journalists Syndicate (PJS) and all Palestinian and foreign media workers targeted and demands immediate international action to hold Israel accountable for its deliberate targeting of journalists and the media.
Specifically targeting media buildings, destroying their equipment, and arresting journalists is far beyond the work of defending themselves from terrorists.
Israel is no saint, I'll grant that, but literally nothing excuses sending indiscriminate rocket and drone attacks into civilian areas.
Hamas literally does this to get the heavy reprisal from Israel and drum up exactly this sort of support internationally. They're the real scum here and the poor Gazans are the ones who generally pay the price. Israel has no choice but to hit back, and Hamas has all of their infrastructure in civilian areas of the strip intentionally. How Gazans still support Hamas is beyond me
Yeah, it's problematic when Hamas puts rocket launchers on top of buildings, or in schools and hospitals, and is basically inviting Israel into a PR-trap, as in "I dare you to hit back"...
And to be fair, only one side has the capability to specifically target certain buildings, and still chooses to target civilian buildings in populated cities. Speaking of, this is not very becoming of a liberal democracy:
Specifically targeting media buildings, destroying their equipment, and arresting journalists is far beyond the work of defending themselves from terrorists.
Israel is no saint, I'll grant that, but literally nothing excuses sending indiscriminate rocket and drone attacks into civilian areas.
Hamas literally does this to get the heavy reprisal from Israel and drum up exactly this sort of support internationally. They're the real scum here and the poor Gazans are the ones who generally pay the price. Israel has no choice but to hit back, and Hamas has all of their infrastructure in civilian areas of the strip intentionally. How Gazans still support Hamas is beyond me
Iran isn't going to write those checks and send those weapons if Hamas doesn't get results.
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Israel's elections had 39 different parties that ran. The fringe parties almost always end up in a coalition with either Likud or whichever party has the most left wing votes.
These parties almost always have abhorrent policies, but we're not looking at some drastic change in the political landscape.
This is why people who campaign for proportional representation should be careful what they wish for.
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If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
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Both Israelis and Palestinians deserve major structural changes to their democracies.
Israel has had what five elections in three years? The PR system is unworkable and fringe parties with extreme agendas wind up with far too much power. Years ago when Likud and Labor had a national unity government there were serious discussions about constitutional amendments to change the system to more of a first past the post similar to ours but unfortunately those changes were not adopted.
As for Palestine, they need to free themselves from Hamas (Iran).
The real worry for Israel of course is the tens of thousands of more sophisticated missiles stockpiled in Lebanon in the hands of Hezbollah (Iran).
Both Israelis and Palestinians deserve major structural changes to their democracies.
Israel has had what five elections in three years? The PR system is unworkable and fringe parties with extreme agendas wind up with far too much power. Years ago when Likud and Labor had a national unity government there were serious discussions about constitutional amendments to change the system to more of a first past the post similar to ours but unfortunately those changes were not adopted.
As for Palestine, they need to free themselves from Hamas (Iran).
The real worry for Israel of course is the tens of thousands of more sophisticated missiles stockpiled in Lebanon in the hands of Hezbollah (Iran).
It would take a major shift in the Palestinian cause to free themselves of Hamas. In the last election Hamas won 73 of 132 seats, with the next closest party, Fatah, only getting 43 seats.
A weak ago Abbas was delaying elections, most certainly out of fear that Hamas would have another major victory.
Meanwhile, in Israel, the hard right gains more support everyday as the ultra-orthodox have more children. The Haredi currently make up about 12% of the Israeli population. But in 40 years, that number is estimated to jump to 1/3.
The most hardline major Haredi political party is Shas. They represent the non-Ashkenazi Jewish Haredi movement. Shas is now the 3rd biggest political party in Israel. Unlike Ashkenazi movements, the Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews - who are almost exclusively refugees from Muslim and Arab countries - have a lot less sympathy for the Palestinian movement. Many spent centuries living as Dhimmi, being forced into daily humiliations, like wearing ridiculous hats in public, only to end up being violently forced from their lands.
Basically, my point is that the peace process seems to be running out of time, if that time hasn't already passed. If something is going to happen, it needs to happen quickly.
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Just to be clear Gaza has a population of 1.8 million in an area of half the size of Calgary, they are packed in like sardines in a can, giving them a warning a missile is coming is irrelevant as they are so closely packed and have no where they can go to to escape, what Israel is doing isnt any better or less indiscriminate in practise than what Hamas is doing
Israeli propaganda about the "expulsion" of Arab Jews from Arab countries in the late 1940s and early 1950s continues without respite. Earlier this month, Israel's UN ambassador, Gilad Erdan, informed UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres that he "intends to submit a draft resolution requiring the international body to hold an annual commemoration for the hundreds of thousands of Jews exiled from Arab countries due to the creation of the State of Israel," according to a report in Ynet.
Israel's fabrications about the immigration of Arab Jews to Israel are so outrageous that the country holds a commemoration on 30 November each year. This date just happens to coincide with the ethnic cleansing by Zionist gangs of Palestine, which began on 30 November 1947, a day after the UN General Assembly adopted the Partition Plan. The choice of date seeks to implicate Arab Jews in the conquest of Palestine, when most had no role in it.
Erdan alleges that, after the establishment of the Israeli settler-colony, Arab countries "launched a widespread attack against the State of Israel and the thriving Jewish communities that lived within [the Arab world]". Israeli fabrications, with which Israel always hoped to force Arab countries into paying Israel billions of dollars, have a second important goal: to exonerate Israel from its original sin of expelling Palestinians in 1948 and stealing their land and property.
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In December 1948, the UN General Assembly mandated that Palestinian refugees be allowed to return home and that they be compensated for the destruction and theft of their property by Israel. Israel not only wants to hold on to all of those lands, but to extort Arab countries to pay out billions more.
There is a further irony to the Israeli ploy: Israel has always insisted that Palestine, and later Israel, is the homeland of world Jewry, while simultaneously claiming that Arab Jews who immigrated to Israel are "refugees". The legal and internationally accepted definition of a refugee, however, is of a person who was expelled or fled their homeland, not one who "returns" to their homeland.
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In 1949, the Israeli government was working assiduously with British colonial authorities in Aden and with Yemeni officials to airlift Yemeni Jews to Israel. While the League of Arab States had resolved to ban the emigration of Arab Jews to Israel, Yemen's imam allowed Jews to leave as early as February 1949, with the help of Zionist emissaries and Israeli bribes to provincial Yemeni rulers, according to prominent Israeli historian Tom Segev's book: 1949: The First Israelis.
Some provincial rulers asked that at least 2,000 Jews remain, as it was the religious duty of Muslims to protect them, but the Zionist emissary insisted that it was a Jewish religious "commandment" for them to go to the "Land of Israel". The fact that Israel's prime minister at the time was David Ben Gurion also suggested to many that Israel "was the kingdom of David," according to Segev and other sources. Tens of thousands of Jews were urged to leave their homes and travel to Israel.
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As for the Jews who opted to stay, the Jewish emissary in Aden, Shlomo Schmidt, asked permission to propose that Yemeni authorities expel them, but Yemeni authorities did not.
Some of the luggage of the departing Jews, including ancient Torah scrolls, jewellery and embroidered garments, which they were encouraged to bring with them, disappeared en route and mysteriously "made their way to antique and souvenir shops in Israel," according to Segev and other sources.
About 50,000 Yemeni Jews were essentially removed from Yemen by the Israelis in 1949 and 1950 to face institutionalised Ashkenazi discrimination in Israel. This included the abduction of hundreds of Yemeni children from their parents, who were told the children died; the children were then allegedly handed over for adoption to Ashkenazi couples.
Zionists were also active in bringing about the emigration of Morocco's Jews to Israel. Morocco was under French colonial occupation at the time, so the Jewish Agency had to strike an agreement with the French governor of Morocco to bring about the emigration of Moroccan Jews, who had to face horrific conditions on Israeli ships, according to Segev and other sources. Some of the 100,000 Jews who left, according to the Jewish Agency emissary, had to be virtually "taken aboard the ships by force".
Meanwhile, the Iraqi government of Nuri al-Said, Britain's strongman in the Arab east, was maligned by Israeli propaganda that it was persecuting Jews, when in fact these were Israeli fabrications. Zionist agents had been active in Iraq, smuggling Jews through Iran to Israel, which led to the prosecution of a handful of Zionists.
Then, attacks on Iraqi Jews began, including at the Masuda Shemtov synagogue in Baghdad, killing four Jews and wounding around a dozen more. Some Iraqi Jews believed that this was the work of Mossad agents, aiming to scare Jews into leaving the country. Iraqi authorities accused and executed two activists from the Zionist underground.
Amid Israel's global campaign to pressure Iraq into allowing Jews to leave - which led to Israeli attempts to block a World Bank loan to Iraq, accompanied by American and British pressure - the Iraqi parliament relented and issued a law permitting Jews to leave. Zionist agents in Iraq telegraphed their handler in Tel Aviv: "We are carrying on our usual activity in order to push the law through faster." Iraq's 120,000 Jews were thus soon transferred to Israel.
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Despite Israeli culpability in bringing about the exodus of Arab Jews from their countries, the Israeli government continues to blame it on Arab governments. As for the property of Arab Jews, indeed, they should be fully entitled to it and/or to compensation - not on account of some fabricated expulsion narrative that serves the interests of the Israeli state, but on account of their actual ownership.
Contrary to Israeli propaganda that there was a population swap, it is notable that while European and Arab Jews who emigrated to Israel were given the stolen land and properties of expelled Palestinians free of charge, according to Israeli historian Benny Morris and other sources, the Palestinians did not receive the property of the Arab Jews who migrated to Israel.
Israel, at least, can argue that it can win or has won a war. Palestine can not. They should be the ones pushing for peace, pushing non-violence, because it's the only way they can win. Make Israel fight a war with their own conscience.
Israel, at least, can argue that it can win or has won a war. Palestine can not. They should be the ones pushing for peace, pushing non-violence, because it's the only way they can win. Make Israel fight a war with their own conscience.
Nice in theory, in practice the Arabs have the square root of bugger all and a trunk load of pictures of the olive orchard they used to own, in truth they were probably just as poor back in '66 but myths being what they are I'm sure in their minds they had a great life and it was all stolen (as it was), hard to get people to give up any hope of getting what was once theirs back again, would you give up? did the Jews?
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Nice in theory, in practice the Arabs have the square root of bugger all and a trunk load of pictures of the olive orchard they used to own, in truth they were probably just as poor back in '66 but myths being what they are I'm sure in their minds they had a great life and it was all stolen (as it was), hard to get people to give up any hope of getting what was once theirs back again, would you give up? did the Jews?
Have you looked this subject up since the early 2000s? You do know that Galloway was suspended from parliament, after being found to have misallocated funds. Since then he has given support for Assad, lambasted a muslim contender for a forced marriage, had a stint on Celebrity Big Brother, expressed support for the Iranian regime, and, most recently, taken on a role with the Russian Times. He also has a habit of running for election, losing, and then contending the results.
Have you looked this subject up since the early 2000s? You do know that Galloway was suspended from parliament, after being found to have misallocated funds. Since then he has given support for Assad, lambasted a muslim contender for a forced marriage, had a stint on Celebrity Big Brother, expressed support for the Iranian regime, and, most recently, taken on a role with the Russian Times. He also has a habit of running for election, losing, and then contending the results.
Perhaps you could actually comment on the contents of Galloway's speech.
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Just to be clear Gaza has a population of 1.8 million in an area of half the size of Calgary, they are packed in like sardines in a can, giving them a warning a missile is coming is irrelevant as they are so closely packed and have no where they can go to to escape, what Israel is doing isnt any better or less indiscriminate in practise than what Hamas is doing
You have zero idea on a) modern munitions used in this application and b) the geography of Gaza.
These sorts of attacks are generally contained to the one building and the ones adjacent at most. This isn't a firebombing of Dresden in response to the indiscriminate V2 attacks on London.
Gaza might be small but a warning gives more than ample time to get a city block away to avoid injury. You're acting like they're trapped in a meter square bubble (won't even go into the argument about all the non-urban farm land in Gaza, but that isn't even necessary to debunk your argument).
