Brad Treliving needs to go

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Yes, I know he's talking about more than one player. What I'm suggesting is that Markstrom was that last piece to convince him.

Yeah, I think we’re more or less on the same page. Markstrom is a critical factor in all of this.

I do believe though that this team is better than what they have shown this year. I’m thinking we’re going to see one trade that most see coming (Gaudreau) and another that catches most people off guard (Backlund/Dube/Mangipane...).

Another change I wonder about is whether or not Sutter makes some alterations to his coaching staff. (Bring in Versteeg to run the PP!! Half joking).

[nik-]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Yeah, I think we’re more or less on the same page. Markstrom is a critical factor in all of this.

I do believe though that this team is better than what they have shown this year. I’m thinking we’re going to see one trade that most see coming (Gaudreau) and another that catches most people off guard (Backlund/Dube/Mangipane...).

Another change I wonder about is whether or not Sutter makes some alterations to his coaching staff. (Bring in Versteeg to run the PP!! Half joking).

Why?

Two thirds of a season two seasons ago?

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

Its almost like it was a total rebuild. One that started with total buy in from the fans, media and owners. One that he had time to get right... even if he did start with nothing, which wasn't the case. I listed the assets he started with, they are/were good players. Look around the league for true empty cupboard rebuilds throughout history. This was not the case in Calgary. If you think that it was that terrible, it's your opinion, one I do not share. A true terrible roster and prospect base would've led to multiple last place finishes. Brad started on second base in a rebuild imo and has no idea whatsoever how to advance the runner. He knew it wasn't terrible hence why he tried to accelerate it. It's just he's a bad GM and made all the wrong decisions in trying to do that.

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I’ll suggest you take your own advice on that one.

Every GM short of an expansion franchise inherits something. But let’s not also overlook that it is/was the Calgary Flames. Not exactly at the top of the list for desirable markets as far as attracting players. There were, and continue to be, very few sweetheart deals, see Adam Fox. Jiri painted a pretty clear picture that the Flames situation was far from an enviable one. If you can’t acknowledge that, you’re in complete denial.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by nik-

Why?

Two thirds of a season two seasons ago?

Again, most hockey journalists, bloggers, podcasters, insiders, etc. had this team in the playoffs.

[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I’ll suggest you take your own advice on that one.

Every GM short of an expansion franchise inherits something. But let’s not also overlook that it is/was the Calgary Flames. Not exactly at the top of the list for desirable markets as far as attracting players. There were, and continue to be, very few sweetheart deals, see Adam Fox. Jiri painted a pretty clear picture that the Flames situation was far from an enviable one. If you can’t acknowledge that, you’re in complete denial.

Cool. I guess gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett, Giordano, Backlund, brodie and ferland were just typical staring peices.

-JG ppg player
-Monahan pseudo 1c
-backlund 2c, possible selke candidate
-bennett, dropped the ball, his own fault
-brodie, 2/3 D
-gio, 1D
-ferland, top 9 powerforward

Yup. Nothing lol

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[TOfan]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

Cool. I guess gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett, Giordano, Backlund, brodie and ferland were just typical staring peices.

-JG ppg player
-Monahan pseudo 1c
-backlund 2c, possible selke candidate
-bennett, dropped the ball, his own fault
-brodie, 2/3 D
-gio, 1D
-ferland, top 9 powerforward

Yup. Nothing lol

Sent from my SM-G988W using Tapatalk

Swing and a miss.

To be clear, my point is that all GM’s inherit something. Treliving is included in this. Albeit, Treliving’s situation wasn’t as fortunate as, say, Sakic’s in Colorado, or Blake’s in LA, or Gorton’s in NY.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Again, most hockey journalists, bloggers, podcasters, insiders, etc. had this team in the playoffs.

Another year of squeaking in and then getting knocked out in the first is a pretty low bar for "better".

Personally I'd prefer an actually good team. Not a pretender.

[Strange Brew]

Treliving defenders seem to gloss over the cap space he inherited and the ability to accumulate high picks because of the bad roster. It's what he did with these things that provides fuel for his detractors.

To me, looking at the state of the big league roster seven years ago doesn't explain the state of the organization today. Will be real interesting to see if this prospect base is materially better. As pointed out, he inherited a bad NHL team so being unable to upgrade the organizational pipeline would be criminal.

As other have pointed out, he did in fact inherit some excellent foundational pieces. And then essentially moved sideways for seven years.

I'm done with blaming Sutter or Feaster for this organization.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I’ll suggest you take your own advice on that one.

Every GM short of an expansion franchise inherits something. But let’s not also overlook that it is/was the Calgary Flames. Not exactly at the top of the list for desirable markets as far as attracting players. There were, and continue to be, very few sweetheart deals, see Adam Fox. Jiri painted a pretty clear picture that the Flames situation was far from an enviable one. If you can’t acknowledge that, you’re in complete denial.

Someone that disagrees with your assessment is not in complete denial. What a brutal way to discuss the topic.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Treliving defenders seem to gloss over the cap space he inherited and the ability to accumulate high picks because of the bad roster. It's what he did with these things that provides fuel for his detractors.

To me, looking at the state of the big league roster seven years ago doesn't explain the state of the organization today. Will be real interesting to see if this prospect base is materially better. As pointed out, he inherited a bad NHL team so being unable to upgrade the organizational pipeline would be criminal.

As other have pointed out, he did in fact inherit some excellent foundational pieces. And then essentially moved sideways for seven years.

I'm done with blaming Sutter or Feaster for this organization.

Most of these discussions end up being circular. My view is that the organization via the owners, set expectations for a rapid rebuild that caused Bt to spend what capital he had prematurely to plug holes instead of going through a proper asset rebuilding process this franchise has needed for decades.
Whether one buys into that probably largely defines where you fall on whether he should be retained or not.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Swing and a miss.

To be clear, my point is that all GM’s inherit something. Treliving is included in this. Albeit, Treliving’s situation wasn’t as fortunate as, say, Sakic’s in Colorado, or Blake’s in LA, or Gorton’s in NY.

Haha... swing and a miss, then yammer on about Blake’s fortunate situation in LA? What?

Yeah, cap jail is a wonderful team to inherit.

Gotten also didn’t land in a fortunate situation. He built, just like he laid the foundation for the Bruins success.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Most of these discussions end up being circular. My view is that the organization via the owners, set expectations for a rapid rebuild that caused Bt to spend what capital he had prematurely to plug holes instead of going through a proper asset rebuilding process this franchise has needed for decades.
Whether one buys into that probably largely defines where you fall on whether he should be retained or not.

You are right, they definitely are circular.

I'd say 95% of us on here see it as a relative scale of culpability for the GM and how much blame to assign him. In reality many of us are probably not that far apart on this but it makes for interesting debate.

I know you don't see him as blameless, nor do I see him as incompetent. Our threshold of whether we want someone else in the role is just somewhat different.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Most of these discussions end up being circular. My view is that the organization via the owners, set expectations for a rapid rebuild that caused Bt to spend what capital he had prematurely to plug holes instead of going through a proper asset rebuilding process this franchise has needed for decades.
Whether one buys into that probably largely defines where you fall on whether he should be retained or not.

I do think ownership caused the rebuild to not be as deep or long.
It was a bad strategic decision, and they should get the blame. Ownership is to blame for the prolonged mediocrity.

But Treliving has definitely made many of his own mistakes.
The more specific errors can be attributed to Treliving. The Gulutzan hire, the Neal signing, acquiring guys like Smith and Elliott instead of Lehner and Grubauer... These were just bad evaluations of talent.

I would say that both ownership and management should be fired.
However, only one of these things is possible (unfortunately).

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Boreal

Haha... swing and a miss, then yammer on about Blake’s fortunate situation in LA? What?

Yeah, cap jail is a wonderful team to inherit.

Gotten also didn’t land in a fortunate situation. He built, just like he laid the foundation for the Bruins success.

Again, all GM’s inherit something of value. And chances are, unless you’re Julien Brisbois, you’re also inheriting someone else’s mess. The mess part is generally why the new GM is required. All situations are unique in one way or another.

That said, the premise that Treliving walked into a situation on the cusp of a meteoric rise to greatness is a flawed one.

[Aarongavey]

Treliving inherited a team that had 7 first round picks in the previous 6 years and a team that had Sean Monahan, Johnny Gaudreau, TJ Brodie, Joe Colborne, Mikael Backlund, Lance Bouma, Sven Baertschi, Markus Granlund and Paul Byron under the age of 25. He had the following players in the system - Ferland, Jankowski and Kulak.

I think that team, with a 2015 first rounder and four 2015 second rounders and a 2018 first rounder and a couple seconds, along with a high second rounder in 2016 likely is ok in 2021. It would seem that there would likely be some assets maturing around now, assets that may have pushed out other assets, spurring on other trade opportunities or just different options.

But it is definitely false to say that the cupboards were empty when Brad came in. He was fairly well positioned for a rebuild.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Treliving inherited a team that had 7 first round picks in the previous 6 years and a team that had Sean Monahan, Johnny Gaudreau, TJ Brodie, Joe Colborne, Mikael Backlund, Lance Bouma, Sven Baertschi, Markus Granlund and Paul Byron under the age of 25. He had the following players in the system - Ferland, Jankowski and Kulak.

I think that team, with a 2015 first rounder and four 2015 second rounders and a 2018 first rounder and a couple seconds, along with a high second rounder in 2016 likely is ok in 2021. It would seem that there would likely be some assets maturing around now, assets that may have pushed out other assets, spurring on other trade opportunities or just different options.

But it is definitely false to say that the cupboards were empty when Brad came in. He was fairly well positioned for a rebuild.

TBF the cupboards, while not bare, had a lot of junk food in them. Bouma had a short shelf life, Sven was not what he seemed, Granlund was replacement level and Colborne and Jankowski were destined to fail.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Treliving inherited a team that had 7 first round picks in the previous 6 years and a team that had Sean Monahan, Johnny Gaudreau, TJ Brodie, Joe Colborne, Mikael Backlund, Lance Bouma, Sven Baertschi, Markus Granlund and Paul Byron under the age of 25. He had the following players in the system - Ferland, Jankowski and Kulak.

I think that team, with a 2015 first rounder and four 2015 second rounders and a 2018 first rounder and a couple seconds, along with a high second rounder in 2016 likely is ok in 2021. It would seem that there would likely be some assets maturing around now, assets that may have pushed out other assets, spurring on other trade opportunities or just different options.

But it is definitely false to say that the cupboards were empty when Brad came in. He was fairly well positioned for a rebuild.

Peter Charelli inherited a team that had the first overall pick and three previous 1OA’s as well. He also had Nurse and Draisaitl. He had the following under 25 as well; Laurent Brossoit, Adam clendening, Brandon Davidson, Jordan Eberle, Oscar Klefbim, Anton Lander, and, ahem, Griffey Reinhardt....I’m sure they also had draft picks.

You’re also doing a fine job of picking your spots. The Flames entered the 2015 draft with a first and three 2nds. They traded the first and two seconds for Hamilton, leaving the with one. They acquired the ‘fourth’ second through another trade to select Kylington. So I guess in your view Treliving should be faulted for the picks surrendered for
Hamilton, but we can sweep the acquisition of the fourth 2nd under the carpet.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

I do think ownership caused the rebuild to not be as deep or long.
It was a bad strategic decision, and they should get the blame. Ownership is to blame for the prolonged mediocrity.

But Treliving has definitely made many of his own mistakes.
The more specific errors can be attributed to Treliving. The Gulutzan hire, the Neal signing, acquiring guys like Smith and Elliott instead of Lehner and Grubauer... These were just bad evaluations of talent.

I would say that both ownership and management should be fired.
However, only one of these things is possible (unfortunately).

I lay a lot of blame on ownership, but they tried to save themselves from themselves by hiring Burke. Who couldn't save himself from himself.

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Treliving inherited a team that had 7 first round picks in the previous 6 years and a team that had Sean Monahan, Johnny Gaudreau, TJ Brodie, Joe Colborne, Mikael Backlund, Lance Bouma, Sven Baertschi, Markus Granlund and Paul Byron under the age of 25. He had the following players in the system - Ferland, Jankowski and Kulak.

I think that team, with a 2015 first rounder and four 2015 second rounders and a 2018 first rounder and a couple seconds, along with a high second rounder in 2016 likely is ok in 2021. It would seem that there would likely be some assets maturing around now, assets that may have pushed out other assets, spurring on other trade opportunities or just different options.

But it is definitely false to say that the cupboards were empty when Brad came in. He was fairly well positioned for a rebuild.

Monahan
Poirier
Klimchuk
Janko
Baertschi
Erixon
Nemisz (maybe you meant Bennett?)

Two of those 1sts were in the top 20 (Monny, Baertschi).

The cupboards may not have been bare, but they were pretty close.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I lay a lot of blame on ownership, but they tried to save themselves from themselves by hiring Burke. Who couldn't save himself from himself.



Monahan
Poirier
Klimchuk
Janko
Baertschi
Erixon
Nemisz (maybe you meant Bennett?)

Two of those 1sts were in the top 20 (Monny, Baertschi).

The cupboards may not have been bare, but they were pretty close.

Accurate.

[powderjunkie]

A random fun fact about Brian Burke: with TOR in 2011, he traded up in the draft to pick #22 to select [big, truculent, American, great name] Tyler Biggs, who barely managed to play 50+ games twice in the AHL (mostly ECHL). He ended up a contract throw-in on the Kessel to PIT deal 5 years later.

ANA used pick 30 to draft Rakell, and pick 39 on John friggin' Gibson. Most succesfull trade down, ever?


FWIW I don't hate either BT and BB, but they've both made some Chiarelli-level deals.