Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[nik-]

Originally Posted by pylon

I get the Flames proposal sucks. And they can leave for all I care if that's their line in the sand. But there was a far more diplomatic way to knock down Calgary NEXT and a far, far better way than releasing the city proposal and basically exposing what should have been confidential negotiations to the public.

He poked a big bear, and instead of the bear mauling him, it just looked at him, raised it's eyebrow and walked away.

Diplomatic like going straight to public with their proposal and not even showing it to the city first?

The Flames got far more respectful treatment than they deserved after what they did. They can complain about treatment after the fact all they want, their tactics in this entire process have been terrible and they're reaping the sentiment of that now.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by nik-

He's throwing a tantrum, so yeah he is.

No one here is capable of silencing anyone else, so stop with this bull####.

Sorry, should have used "belittle", not "silence".

I'm not sure how you get a "tantrum" from an online post - he was slamming a politician that he doesn't agree with, and listed a few reasons why. To me, your post just looked like you held an opposing point of view, and were belittling Pylon's post by saying "you're embarrassing yourself".

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by DJones

They both wrote into their plans that the other party is the owner.

That doesn't mean either side doesn't want to own it though. If both sides agreed to split the costs 50/50 I doubt either side would simply let the other take ownership to avoid the burden of owning an arena.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Sorry, should have used "belittle", not "silence".

I'm not sure how you get a "tantrum" from an online post - he was slamming a politician that he doesn't agree with, and listed a few reasons why. To me, your post just looked like you held an opposing point of view, and were belittling Pylon's post by saying "you're embarrassing yourself".

Reread his post, it is embarrassing.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Honestly, why does this arena have to cost $550 million? Would a $350 million arena not do the trick? This question seems especially relevant considering how disposable these facilities have become.

Yeah, I don't really get that either. Here's how much every other Canadian NHL arena cost to build in 2016 dollars:

Edmonton: $480M
Montreal: $390M
Toronto: $366M
Ottawa: $246M
Vancouver: $235M
Winnipeg: $188M

Why is it seen as a given that Calgary needs a $500M+ facility?

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by pylon

I get the Flames proposal sucks. And they can leave for all I care if that's their line in the sand. But there was a far more diplomatic way to knock down Calgary NEXT and a far, far better way than releasing the city proposal and basically exposing what should have been confidential negotiations to the public.

He poked a big bear, and instead of the bear mauling him, it just looked at him, raised it's eyebrow and walked away.

To be fair to Nenshi and the city, the flames could have presented calgaryNext in a much better way. They clearly didn't do their due diligence and rushed a presentation in which they were asking for a lot of tax payer money that would likely not see a very good return on their investment. Keep in mind they are negotiating with the city, a public entity, and that while confidentiality at the table should be expected while negotiating, once an offer is formally presented the city has every right to inform the public if any tax dollars are part of the proposed deal.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by nik-

Reread his post, it is embarrassing.

Okay...

Most people do realise that. But Nenshi came across as a smug little twerp from day one. Regardless of how utterly awesome Nenshi thinks he is (just ask him and I'm sure he'll tell you), he's the face of the city in a negotiation with people that pay more tax in a year, than Nenshi makes in a term. I don't know if it's typical small man syndrome, but Nenshi seems to like to antagonise people and companies that are far more successful, and frankly way above his 'pay grade' of success. Wenzel, UBER, The Flames, and I'm sure I'm missing others.

Again, this mans legacy is now going to be one the likes Peter Pocklington. A hero at first, but the ultimate villain in the end. I don't agree with the Flames proposal, but Nenshi's ego and horrible tact from day one is why we are here. You think a guy like Murray Edwards is going to let Nenshi push him around and berate his corporation in public?

He's being critical of Nenshi. Since when is being critical of a politician embarrassing? Also, who are you to judge what another person should feel embarrassed about?

No point in continuing to derail the topic here, so I'll leave it here. I just didn't think his post justified your antagonistic response.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Yeah, I don't really get that either. Here's how much every other Canadian NHL arena cost to build in 2016 dollars:

Edmonton: $480M
Montreal: $390M
Toronto: $366M
Ottawa: $246M
Vancouver: $235M
Winnipeg: $188M

Why is it seen as a given that Calgary needs a $500M+ facility?

Most of those outside of Edmonton we're built in the 90's? Inflation would raise those figures up I assume.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Yeah, I don't really get that either. Here's how much every other Canadian NHL arena cost to build in 2016 dollars:

Edmonton: $480M
Montreal: $390M
Toronto: $366M
Ottawa: $246M
Vancouver: $235M
Winnipeg: $188M

Why is it seen as a given that Calgary needs a $500M+ facility?

Does that include infrastructure etc?
Cause if it does, then I am missing why we need a 500M+ facility as well.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Most of those outside of Edmonton we're built in the 90's? Inflation would raise those figures up I assume.

Those are in 2016 dollars.

[Ice_Weasel]

Originally Posted by nik-

Reread his post, it is embarrassing.

Well, that really is a matter of perspective. As hard as it is for you to believe, I actually think its embarrassing that the flames ownership group are being vilified on here when their collective contribution to the City of Calgary is undeniable. People are spewing emotion like they have been personally violated by these businessman who are perfectly entitled to negotiate whatever they think is the best deal for them. Pretty sure a couple hundred million to them is more material than the $10 of tax (or whatever it is) we are contributing.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by RM14

what is it, like $10 per taxpayer? And you feel bent over?

Lol. How do you get $10/taxpayer when the ask is in the hundreds of millions of dollars and our city has a population 1.2M?

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Backlunds_socks

Haha, CSEC is not a bear - they need the city not vice-versa. CSECs like a little parasite that can be helpful at times.

I realise that. I am referencing Nenshi vs. King/Edwards.

This thing is all about ego's now. And unfortunately reclusive billionaire types aren't going to give a small timer like Nenshi the time of day if he's going to posture/berate and talk down to the way he has been. Nenshi's tune changed once the relocation/pull out of negotiation threats started and he was afraid it would cost him votes.

Unfortunately Ken King is now forced to deliver the bad news and look like the bad guy in this.

Both sides suck, but Nenshi was the the antagonist. I wouldn't negotiate with him either.

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

You've had ten years to come up with a plan and it's crap.

You do know it's not just his job to come up with an arena plan, right? If the owners don't want to put more money in, there isn't a lot he can do.

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

You know nothing about hockey and yet have your fingers in all hockey operations, almost chasing away one of the best GM's this team has ever had.

He did not almost chase away Treliving. That's some hearsay or conjecture at best.

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Our jerseys suck, and have for ten years, when all you have to do is go to a retro design that already exists for an order of magnitude improvement.

Not everyone is in favour of the retro jerseys. Yes, they are my favourite, but this has been debated many times. There are a large number of people who like the current ones, like the 2004 version, snot horse, something new, etc. Not everyone likes the retros. In fact, it's not even a majority. The economics of why they didn't do a huge overhaul on the current ones as they go to Adidas has been explained many, many times.

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Every part of this negotiation from your side is hamfisted, literally all you had to do to get me excited about CalgaryNEXT as a 25 year old sports fan is to come up with some decent architectural renderings that any firm could do for peanuts. Instead you gave us a graphic that looked like Homer Simpsons bubble car crossed with George Jetson's house that was designed by a SAIT freshman. Conduct a press conference with tough questions about a complicated negotiation? You can't even do a five minute puff interview with your radio affiliate without sounding like a jackass.

The NEXT announcement was horrific. No arguments there, but once again, he didn't make any of the drawings, slideshow, etc. Maybe he should have stopped it from going public until it was better, but maybe the owners wanted it to go public at that time. Sometimes you need to do things you don't want to because your boss wants them done.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Does that include infrastructure etc?
Cause if it does, then I am missing why we need a 500M+ facility as well.

Edmonton was $604.5 million for the whole project.

[stone hands]

Sure, it's only $10 bucks a month for me, but it's 275M dollars of public money no longer available to be allocated to public spending on things like roads and infrastructure and basically anything else that anyone can use and don't have to pay for entry at(generally), all so that the Calgary flames can sell more luxury suites

No thanks

[420since1974]

I don't go to very many Flame's games, but I do attend concerts quite frequently.
I'm often irked that Calgary gets passed by many acts due to the Saddledome's structure/design. This has been happening for at least 15 years.

Nenshi is campaigning in part on an entertainment district which includes a new arena.
If the City has to build it on their own dime, it'll cost taxpayers much more than if they have an anchor tenant like the Flames to partner with.

I'm reasonably sure that both sides are hoping that Calgary wins an Olympic bid, so that the Province of Alberta and the Federal Government of Canada would pay for approximately 2/3 of the project.

I believe that the Flames will stay in the Saddledome until it becomes cost prohibitive for them. We'll see the true beginning of the end when they stop spending to the Cap. The team will become less competitive, attendance will drop, then they'll just move to a city that wants a NHL team more than Calgary.

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

I think that neither the Flames nor the City wanting ownership of a new building says all that currently needs saying.

And yet both independently have stated they want one.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Does that include infrastructure etc?
Cause if it does, then I am missing why we need a 500M+ facility as well.

No, but the $500M figure for Calgary doesn't include infrastructure costs either. It's basically a $500M arena and the city added $55M in land and demolition costs to their proposal which is why theirs was $550M. The infrastructure upgrades would be in addition to that and the city listed them as "indirect costs" that would be the responsibility of the city.

[corporatejay]

I've done some quick looking around and although not very common, it seems to me that the city could build a more than suitable venue for concerts and special events that holds around 12,000 people for less than $200,000,000 and they would get all the proceeds from those events. You could probably do it for a lot less.