Brad Treliving needs to go

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Just fir accuracy: In March and April Monahan has 6 goals and 13 points (his 2 goal game against Mtl was outside your 17 game period though). Since the split (which I think was the 5-0 win against Montreal, so 10 games) he has 3 goals and 5 points. Gaudreau has 5 goals and 12 points. In fairness, Gaudreau got the better end of the new linemate sweepstakes - Lindholm and Tkachuk versus Mangiapane and Ritchie (and Dube for a couple games).

Both of them benefited from an advanced stats perspective.

I find it hard to believe anyone can still defend Monahan at this point. All I've heard from the Sean Monahan apologists is that he can drive his own line, he scores 30 goals in his sleep and even before Johnny Gaudreau arrived, he was a 20 goal scorer. So here it is, Monahan's chance to drive his own line, make others around him better and be a reliable goal scorer now that's he's not facing the top shutdown lines. But he failed badly to rise to the occasion. Gaudreau on the other hand, raised the level of his game like the play driver he is. He took over Dube's position and in doing so, that line transformed into an elite offensive line, producing virtually every game and giving their team a chance to win each night.

Conversely, in those critical games the team needed a goal, Monahan and his line didn't offer the team anything. Those 2 losses to the Canadiens, the loss to the Sens, the loss to the Oilers yesterday, all must have games that came down to the last minute and nothing. Even just one goal could've made a big difference in the standings and zero offensive input. He's a $6M center for crying out loud, paid more than Mark Scheifele, more than Nathan Mackinnon, more than Alex Barkov. No more excuses, show up and do your job.

Finally, those stats you posted there, doesn't even paint half the picture. 2 of those 5 points were empty net points and 3 points came in one game. So we're talking about 7 of the 10 games with nothing. Ask yourself, how many games would you expect your team to win if your 2nd line was shut out for 70% of the games? That's not exactly helpful for a team trying to run the table here. The top line did there job and then some, the second line, underperformed badly based on expectations.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

A random fun fact about Brian Burke: with TOR in 2011, he traded up in the draft to pick #22 to select [big, truculent, American, great name] Tyler Biggs, who barely managed to play 50+ games twice in the AHL (mostly ECHL). He ended up a contract throw-in on the Kessel to PIT deal 5 years later.

ANA used pick 30 to draft Rakell, and pick 39 on John friggin' Gibson. Most succesfull trade down, ever?


FWIW I don't hate either BT and BB, but they've both made some Chiarelli-level deals.

Every GM has bad deals. The current darling, Lombardi, traded a first, Colin Miller and Jones for Lucic as a rental. Looch wasn’t bad there, but that’s a lot for a rental. He let Justin Williams walk without getting anything for him. A second for Cloutier was pretty bad too. Rutherford once traded Sami Kapanen for Patel Brendl.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I find it hard to believe anyone can still defend Monahan at this point. All I've heard from the Sean Monahan apologists is that he can drive his own line, he scores 30 goals in his sleep and even before Johnny Gaudreau arrived, he was a 20 goal scorer. So here it is, Monahan's chance to drive his own line, make others around him better and be a reliable goal scorer now that's he's not facing the top shutdown lines. But he failed badly to rise to the occasion. Gaudreau on the other hand, raised the level of his game like the play driver he is. He took over Dube's position and in doing so, that line transformed into an elite offensive line, producing virtually every game and giving their team a chance to win each night.

Conversely, in those critical games the team needed a goal, Monahan and his line didn't offer the team anything. Those 2 losses to the Canadiens, the loss to the Sens, the loss to the Oilers yesterday, all must have games that came down to the last minute and nothing. Even just one goal could've made a big difference in the standings and zero offensive input. He's a $6M center for crying out loud, paid more than Mark Scheifele, more than Nathan Mackinnon, more than Alex Barkov. No more excuses, show up and do your job.

Finally, those stats you posted there, doesn't even paint half the picture. 2 of those 5 points were empty net points and 3 points came in one game. So we're talking about 7 of the 10 games with nothing. Ask yourself, how many games would you expect your team to win if your 2nd line was shut out for 70% of the games? That's not exactly helpful for a team trying to run the table here. The top line did there job and then some, the second line, underperformed badly based on expectations.

Um, someone asked an out how many points he had so I posted them. I made none of the comments you are talking about. I said he has much better advanced stats. The very closest thing to a defence was that Johnny got better linemates. Do you disagree?

Chill out.

As for his contract, he’s actually pretty consistent with most guys making his money, even in this tragic year for him production wise. You managed to fine three guys making slightly less who score more (though not historically). If I can name three who score about the same and make the same, or even score a lot less and make a lot more will you feel better? Stepan? Duchene? Johansen? Couture? Kuznetsov? Hayes? Stasny? Schenn? Nelson? They are all in the $6-8M range and all are scoring around Monahan’s level. That isn’t to defend Monahan’s year. It’s been brutal. But you are so desperate to slam him you think bare facts are some sort of defence.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

A random fun fact about Brian Burke: with TOR in 2011, he traded up in the draft to pick #22 to select [big, truculent, American, great name] Tyler Biggs, who barely managed to play 50+ games twice in the AHL (mostly ECHL). He ended up a contract throw-in on the Kessel to PIT deal 5 years later.

ANA used pick 30 to draft Rakell, and pick 39 on John friggin' Gibson. Most succesfull trade down, ever?


FWIW I don't hate either BT and BB, but they've both made some Chiarelli-level deals.

I hated the organization's decision to hire Brian Burke when it happened and in hindsight, I hate it more today. I don't know what they were thinking. His rebuild for the Leafs ended up as a complete disaster. That Luke Schenn trade. Hideous. Guy traded a 1st, 2nd and a 3rd to draft a defensive defensemen who was gone after just 4 seasons with his club. The Kessel trade cost Toronto a 2nd overall pick (Seguin) and 9th overall pick (D. Hamilton).

I hated the decision not to trade Cammalleri because he just ended up lighting it up after the deadline which helped the Flames win more games than they really needed to. Asking the the amateur scouting to find big goons like Keegan Kanzig and Hunter Smith was completely outdated. I think he even traded a couple assets for fighters who barely even played for the team or didn't play for the team. I bet that Brandon Bollig trade was his idea too. Just an awful awful antiquated GM. Great in front of a camera, but an atrocious general manager.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Accurate.

You think those cupboards were bare (inheriting Gaudreau, Backlund, Brodie, Monahan) you should see what Blake got in LA. Those wete glasnost style cupboards in LA.

And then with supposed bare cupboards he promptly traded a 1st round pick and two second round picks a year later. And then he traded a 2nd round pick for a 31 year old goalie a year later. Perplexing strategy to say the least.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Every GM has bad deals. The current darling, Lombardi, traded a first, Colin Miller and Jones for Lucic as a rental. Looch wasn’t bad there, but that’s a lot for a rental. He let Justin Williams walk without getting anything for him. A second for Cloutier was pretty bad too. Rutherford once traded Sami Kapanen for Patel Brendl.

You’re just scratching the surface. The mastermind genius in Vegas once traded Filip Forsberg for Martin Erat. The HHOF GM up North traded two seconds for Andreas Anthanasieu. Stan Bowman traded Panarin for Saad. Even the shrewd Chevy in WPG gave up a couple first round picks for pure rentals. Pretty sure if you go over to ‘WinnipegPuck’ you’ll find a long list of complaints over those deals. How about David Poile’s work? Doug Wilson? The list goes on and on.....

For the record, who ever replaces Treliving, when ever that is, will make bad deals too.

[Jore]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I hated the organization's decision to hire Brian Burke when it happened and in hindsight, I hate it more today. I don't know what they were thinking. His rebuild for the Leafs ended up as a complete disaster. That Luke Schenn trade. Hideous. Guy traded a 1st, 2nd and a 3rd to draft a defensive defensemen who was gone after just 4 seasons with his club. The Kessel trade cost Toronto a 2nd overall pick (Seguin) and 9th overall pick (D. Hamilton).

I hated the decision not to trade Cammalleri because he just ended up lighting it up after the deadline which helped the Flames win more games than they really needed to. Asking the the amateur scouting to find big goons like Keegan Kanzig and Hunter Smith was completely outdated. I think he even traded a couple assets for fighters who barely even played for the team or didn't play for the team. I bet that Brandon Bollig trade was his idea too. Just an awful awful antiquated GM. Great in front of a camera, but an atrocious general manager.

I remember that Shanahan was supposedly interviewing for the job too. Seeing how the Leafs and Flames have developed their organizations differently since then really makes it look like a huge mistake on the ownership's part to go with Burke. And if it was Shanahan turning the Flames down, I wonder what he saw that made him head elsewhere.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jore

I remember that Shanahan was supposedly interviewing for the job too. Seeing how the Leafs and Flames have developed their organizations differently since then really makes it look like a huge mistake on the ownership's part to go with Burke. And if it was Shanahan turning the Flames down, I wonder what he saw that made him head elsewhere.

It was Shanahan who turned them down in 2013.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...-front-office/

I suspect it was money. Otherwise, why even interview?

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Um, someone asked an out how many points he had so I posted them. I made none of the comments you are talking about. I said he has much better advanced stats. The very closest thing to a defence was that Johnny got better linemates. Do you disagree?

Chill out.

Nobody asked for Monahan's stats. Re-read your post. You were trying to correct me by offering some more favourable looking stats for Monahan, which I'm refuting because those numbers don't tell even half the story.

There's no doubt that Gaudreau got the better linemates. But there's not a chance in the world Monahan would be doing what Gaudreau is doing if he was in the same position. Heck, Gaudreau played a few periods with Managiapane and even he managed to find the back of the net a couple times. Don't sell Andrew Mangiapane short here, he's a helluva player and was actually the leading even strength point getter among wingers just 10 games ago. If anything, statistically speaking, Monahan upgraded when he was moved on to a line with Eat Bread and Dube.

It has never been a question to me who the driver is between Gaudreau and Monahan, it has always been Gaudreau and whatever line he ends up on, generally finds success. This past few weeks have all but proven that.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Nobody asked for Monahan's stats. Re-read your post. You were trying to correct me by offering some more favourable looking stats for Monahan, which I'm refuting because those numbers don't tell even half the story.

There's no doubt that Gaudreau got the better linemates. But there's not a chance in the world Monahan would be doing what Gaudreau is doing if he was in the same position. Heck, Gaudreau played a few periods with Managiapane and even he managed to find the back of the net a couple times. Don't sell Andrew Mangiapane short here, he's a helluva player and was actually the leading even strength point getter among wingers just 10 games ago. If anything, statistically speaking, Monahan upgraded when he was moved on to a line with Eat Bread and Dube.

It has never been a question to me who the driver is between Gaudreau and Monahan, it has always been Gaudreau and whatever line he ends up on, generally finds success. This past few weeks have all but proven that.

OK. You didn’t ask for his stats. You just misstated them. My apologies. And how was I putting more favourable stats out there? I said how many point he had since the switch, which is roughly half of what Gaudreau has. Ho is that somehow more favourable?

As for linemates, Andrew Mangiapane is a good player. Brett Ritchie is not. And while Mangiapane is good, he’s not Lindholm, nor is he even Tkachuk. Do you want to add Tkachuk and Lindholm’s points pre-switch and compare them to Mangiapane and Ritchie? Let’s not get crazy here by asserting Gaudreau got the worse linemates.

No one is saying Monahan would be doing what Gaudreau is (which isn’t that earth shattering BTW). So, if you don’t mind, quit putting words in my mouth.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

OK. You didn’t ask for his stats. You just misstated them. My apologies. And how was I putting more favourable stats out there? I said how many point he had since the switch, which is roughly half of what Gaudreau has. Ho is that somehow more favourable?

As for linemates, Andrew Mangiapane is a good player. Brett Ritchie is not. And while Mangiapane is good, he’s not Lindholm, nor is he even Tkachuk. Do you want to add Tkachuk and Lindholm’s points pre-switch and compare them to Mangiapane and Ritchie? Let’s not get crazy here by asserting Gaudreau got the worse linemates.

No one is saying Monahan would be doing what Gaudreau is (which isn’t that earth shattering BTW). So, if you don’t mind, quit putting words in my mouth.

If you'd like to see some not so favourable stats, how about 3 goals in 22 games for the $6.3M goal scoring center? What's the opposite of earth shattering?

At the end of the day though, It's not even so much about stats. It's about one line doing its job and another line that's not during the most critical juncture of the Flames season. I don't think it's a stretch to say that had the second line actually showed up in the last 10 games, the Flames' season wouldn't be done.

Lastly, I don't like the insinuation that Gaudreau or Monahan's play is somehow only tied to who their linemates are. It sounds like excuse making. Yeah sure, Ritchie doesn't provide much, but Mangiapane and Dube are pretty good wingers in their own right and had that line been more effective, Sutter wouldn't have split them up.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

If you'd like to see some not so favourable stats, how about 3 goals in 22 games for the $6.3M goal scoring center? What's the opposite of earth shattering?

At the end of the day though, It's not even so much about stats. It's about one line doing its job and another line that's not during the most critical juncture of the Flames season. I don't think it's a stretch to say that had the second line actually showed up in the last 10 games, the Flames' season wouldn't be done.

Lastly, I don't like the insinuation that Gaudreau or Monahan's play is somehow only tied to who their linemates are. It sounds like excuse making. Yeah sure, Ritchie doesn't provide much, but Mangiapane and Dube are pretty good wingers in their own right and had that line been more effective, Sutter wouldn't have split them up.

You were the one originally making the argument that Gaudreau was hampered by his line mate. But are you seriously saying Mangiapane is an upgrade over Gaudreau for Monahan (because that’s the only new line mate he ended up with). With Ritchie, Monaghan and Mangiapane have the same issue as Gaudreau and Monahan did - the defenders can ignore half the ice .

The other advantage is that Gaudreau’s liberates have played together all year, and he’s played with both of them before too, on the power play and also obviously with Lindholm.

You keep raising Monahan’s salary but you haven’t addressed my point about that in any way. He’s not an elite centre. He doesn’t make elite centre money. He makes 2C money.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Every GM has bad deals. The current darling, Lombardi, traded a first, Colin Miller and Jones for Lucic as a rental. Looch wasn’t bad there, but that’s a lot for a rental. He let Justin Williams walk without getting anything for him. A second for Cloutier was pretty bad too. Rutherford once traded Sami Kapanen for Patel Brendl.

Definitely. I had just never come across that Burke deal since his other blunders got much more attention.


A lot of it boils down to timing. Coming off a couple of cups, Lombardi pushed a lot of chips in to try for another. Sometimes bad deals still make sense. Sometimes good deals don't (one might argue Hamilton 1.0 for instance).

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Definitely. I had just never come across that Burke deal since his other blunders got much more attention.


A lot of it boils down to timing. Coming off a couple of cups, Lombardi pushed a lot of chips in to try for another. Sometimes bad deals still make sense. Sometimes good deals don't (one might argue Hamilton 1.0 for instance).

I think Hamilton made a bunch of sense, considering his age, the age of Monahan, Gaudreau, Backlund, Brodie and Gio, the expectations for Bennett, and maybe even Jankowski, and the sense that Wideman's great year was a one off. It looked like the Flames were going to be extremely deep down the middle, in a year or so, and that that the Flames had one elite winger and a few good young ones in Ferland, Colborne, Jooris and Granlund. Had a few vets in Jones, Hudler and Frolik to tide them over while the kids gre into a role. The two things they were missing were a big minute, offensive RHS D not named Wideman, and a great goalie (though Hiller and Ramo had done pretty well as a tag team).

Hamilton was 22, same age as Johnny, 2 years older than Monahan, 3 older than Bennett. I think this was a core piece being acquired.

[Psytic]

Bad or lackluster trades need to be looked at in context to. If you think your one Goodrow or Coleman away from winning the cup or even Erat away than yea maybe that was worth a big haul for your club at the time. You cant look at these trades in a vacuum only. Flames have never been 1 piece away in years.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It was Shanahan who turned them down in 2013.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...-front-office/

I suspect it was money. Otherwise, why even interview?

Lots of reasons. It's almost always worth taking an interview, even if you're probably not very interested in the job. Gathering intel, building relationships, and simply interview practice (hockey exec jobs are a bit unique)

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It was Shanahan who turned them down in 2013.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...-front-office/

I suspect it was money. Otherwise, why even interview?

I remember that Shanahan wanted King’s job and not just the role that eventually was given to Burke. Shanahan was looking to be in charge of all aspects not just the hockey side.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I am not exactly sure why we are arguing if Treliving inherited a team with bare cupboards or not.


It has been 7 years now. He has not made this team into a consistent playoff team in that time frame. This is his team now. Every single player on this team has a contract that Treliving signed. Every prospect in the organization now is a player that Treliving picked. This is his team in every way.


Argue what you want about empty cupboards. That conversation lasts at best a few seasons. It has been 7 seasons now, and this team is not going to make the playoffs, and looks nothing like a contender, and as it stands, there isn't a whole lot coming down the pipe either. I like Zary, and Pelletier, and Wolf, and Parsons, and a bunch of other prospects, but I also liked a lot of the other prospects that Feaster drafted too that flopped. There is nothing significant of the 'blue-chip, can't miss, absolutely no questions about it' type of player coming through.


This team is a bit of a mess. I still believe that this team is MORE talented than what they show. I do think that a large measure of why they haven't been as successful as they should have been (based on my opinion of this roster's ability) is perhaps from a continual parade of inept coaches and holes on the team.


However, I can not say that the team constructed is anywhere near a contender. They SHOULD be a perennial playoff team. They should NOT be a contender, however.


So one impatient question I have to ask is - how much longer does Treliving need to build one? 3 more seasons to make it a round 10 years?



I don't know the answer, quite honestly. On one hand, things can be worse with someone else. Instead of getting a Fletcher or even a Sutter, you can get a Riseborough or a Feaster. On the other hand, sometimes you just have to say: "Accountability needs to happen, and keeping a guy around because you are scared that the next guy might be worse" is just not a good decision either.


Treliving is a hard working, intelligent and professional GM. I like him. However, at this point in time, I no longer have the trust in him to make the right decisions to get this team turned around and heading in the right direction. Much like Treliving said abotu Hartley, I feel that Treliving has taken this team as far as he could as well.


Who should replace him? I honestly don't have a clue. Everyone else will have their own set of warts. I just think that at this time, some change is probably warranted at the GM level. I don't think torches and pitchforks are needed at the moment, but it sure is starting to feel like we should start buying them in bulk. Another poor season - which to me now includes making the playoffs but getting bounced in the first round - will probably get me to reach for mine.


Under Treliving, this team has won ONE playoff round, and that happened in his first season on the backs of players that Sutter and Feaster drafted. Flames are 7-18 in the playoffs under Treliving. Take out that 'lucky' year (which I don't think is lucky, but was well-coached under Hartley) and it falls to 3 -12.


In the last 3 combined playoff series, the Flames have not managed to win 4 games total. Including this season (that they are now practically guaranteed to miss), that amounts to ONE SINGLE PLAYOFF GAME VICTORY EVERY TWO YEARS.


That's where I draw the line of accountability now. I think that in 7 years of rebuilding, a GM should be averaging more than one playoff game win every 2 years. With the Flames failing to make the playoffs yet again this season, you can't even make the argument that things are trending up and you have to just keep showing some faith and patience.


2015-16 season, Flames were 12th out of 14 teams in the western conference.
2015-16 - 12th out of 14

2016-17 - 7th out of 14
2017-18 - 11th out of 15
2018-19 - 1st out of 15
2019-20 - 8th out of 15
2020-21 - 5th out of 7


Notice how the Flames are basically making the playoffs every 2 years, in a conference where MORE than half the teams make the playoffs?



Treliving has not built more than just a bubble-team. You can't say that he hasn't had owners willing to spend to the cap - this team spends to the cap and he has had buyouts on the books almost every year of his tenure. The Flames have paid coaches not to coach them. Money isn't holding him back.


3 playoff game victories in 6 seasons. I really liked Treliving. I - for the most part - liked the team he assembled - though it took 6 season to bring in a legitimate starting goaltender and coach.


Like I said, I don't think he is incompetent, but there is very little in terms of results that support the notion that he should be retained. I honestly didn't think I would come to this conclusion, but I have arrived.


For me, I would rather take the chance that this team hires a dummy that sees them plummet down the standings, than to continue with Treliving. I don't think that is an either/or scenario, as the next GM might legitimately be better. I just don't see the point in continuing with a GM who has this team trending the wrong way, and hasn't brought anything to the organization other than 'looks decent on paper' but only 3 playoff game victories in 6 seasons.

[Shazam]

This team will always tend towards mediocrity as long as Edwards owns it.

Good year here and there, but mostly a lot of frustrating hockey.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You were the one originally making the argument that Gaudreau was hampered by his line mate. But are you seriously saying Mangiapane is an upgrade over Gaudreau for Monahan (because that’s the only new line mate he ended up with). With Ritchie, Monaghan and Mangiapane have the same issue as Gaudreau and Monahan did - the defenders can ignore half the ice .

The other advantage is that Gaudreau’s liberates have played together all year, and he’s played with both of them before too, on the power play and also obviously with Lindholm.

You keep raising Monahan’s salary but you haven’t addressed my point about that in any way. He’s not an elite centre. He doesn’t make elite centre money. He makes 2C money.

Does Dube not figure into the equation? He’s had time with the second line as well, but because it wasn’t generating much, Sutter started moving around bodies.

Mangiapane is not an upgrade over Gaudreau, but he’s not chopped liver either. He has had a very good season and in terms of even strength play, he might be the top 5 on 5 winger for his role. For a center of Monahan’s ilk, salary and history of production, I expected him to help elevate the second line now that he’s not facing top shut down pairings. But it’s been the big disappointment down the stretch in my opinion, probably the worst performing line for the role they’re asked to play which is why I’m being critical. There’s been too many one goal games where this line could’ve made an impact and nothing. Outside of a couple games, basically crickets.

Salary wise, I suppose I expected more from someone who at the time, was paid roughly the same as Barkov, Mackinnon and Scheifele. Those 3 have improved over time and developed into elite, franchise centers whereas Monahan has stayed stagnant and has actually regressed. It’s a big reason why this team has regressed as well. There was talk in the Sam Bennett thread about how his failure to launch really hurt this team’s ability to hit that next level, well Monahan in my opinion isn’t that far behind at this point. The contract value isn’t great and it’s being compounded by Sam Bennett’s outstanding start in Florida.