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Old 11-02-2013, 08:32 PM   #1
eddly
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Are you required to disclose that there was a suicide in the house you are selling?

I just got a call from my parents. They thought they had sold their house in Nanaimo British Columbia, but the buyer is now saying that they would have never placed an offer on the house had they known prior that there was a suicide in the house.

The suicide occurred in 2001, my parents bought the house in 2002. They knew about the suicide but that didn't sway their decision to buy the house. The wife of the seller killed herself, with her dog, by carbon monoxide poisoning while in her car in the garage.

My parent's house in Nanaimo had already passed the home inspection, everything was complete and signed. Possession transfer was schedule for the end of November.

Meanwhile, my parents completed a purchase of a house in Airdrie which possession is set to transfer at the end of November as well. All legal work completed.

The "buyer" of my parent's house in Nanaimo now thinks they have legal grounds to walk from the deal and that they can get their deposit back. This would leave my parents with two houses as they can't walk from the Airdrie house.

Just talked to my Dad again and he said his realtor told him that he felt that they didn't have to disclose it (back when they first listed it).

Even if the buyer ends up losing the deposit, it still leaves my parents in a pretty bad spot. I'm going to do some more research on this, but perhaps someone here has some knowledge in terms of disclosure requirements for this situation. If it had just happened I can see how it should be disclosed, but 12 years later? It still needs to be disclosed?
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Old 11-02-2013, 08:36 PM   #2
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I was going to say "that's ######ed they can't just walk away" but considering it happened in BC who knows. That province has some asinine laws.
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Old 11-02-2013, 08:39 PM   #3
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I don't get why it wigs people out so much. It wouldn't bother me any. Besides, do people not get how many dead people their houses are built on?
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Old 11-02-2013, 08:53 PM   #4
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I would have no problem buying a house in that situation either. I guess some people worry about ghosts or bad vibes resulting?

Here is what I have been able to find so far:

Quote:
In a 2006 decision, Judge Gabriel de Pokomandy of the Court of Quebec Civil Division, found that the suicide did not need to be disclosed by the seller. Here is what he said:


“A death, suicide or even a murder in a house cannot be considered something the seller is obliged to disclose, just as there is no obligation to disclose domestic violence, trespass, births, marriages, baptisms, or other life events, whether happy or sad, that may have occurred there, unless there have been questions raised about these facts.”
That is from Quebec though, so not as relevant.
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Old 11-02-2013, 08:54 PM   #5
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I don't get why it wigs people out so much. It wouldn't bother me any. Besides, do people not get how many dead people their houses are built on?
I looked at a house in the late 80's that was well below market value. I asked why and was told that the owner had shot himself in the basement and splattered his remains all over the walls and the floor. It creeped me out when I went down into that basement. Now I don't believe in ghosts and such but I did feel a cold breeze pass me as I was looking around and something touching my shoulder. May well have been my mind playing tricks on me but that was too creepy for me and I went looking elsewhere.
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Old 11-02-2013, 09:00 PM   #6
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From the Real Estate Council of British Columbia:

Quote:
Stigmatized or Psychologically Impacted Properties

Sometimes when dealing in real estate, the onus will be on you, the buyer, to ask questions regarding issues of specific importance to you and your family, rather than relying on a real estate licensee to try to anticipate all of your needs.
If, as a potential buyer, you are concerned about the less obvious structural and mechanical aspects of a property, you can have a property inspection done. However, consumers may have other areas of concern that would cause them to avoid a property. Certain events may cause a property to be described as a “stigmatized property” or a “psychologically impacted property”. These terms are sometimes applied to a property that has had some circumstance occur in or near it, but which does not specifically affect the appearance or function of the property itself.
Examples of these in a residential context might include:
  • a sexual offender is reported to live in the neighbourhood;
  • a former resident was suspected of being an organized crime
  • gang member;
  • a death occurred in the property;
  • the property was robbed or vandalized; and
  • there are reports that the property is haunted.
British Columbia law does not define stigmatized properties. It also does not require sellers or licensees who represent them to disclose circumstances which some may be considered to be stigmas. Buyers are advised to carefully consider the areas of concern they have, discuss them with their licensee, and ensure the necessary inquiries are made to avoid purchasing a property they will not feel comfortable living in.
Based on that it looks like it is up to the buyer to ask prior to closing the purchase if that is something that would concern them.
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Old 11-03-2013, 09:25 PM   #7
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http://www.bcrealestatelawyers.com/f...Properties.php

That's a good summary article of the law around this issue. Spagnuolo is a big real estate firm in BC and we work with them regularly. Basically if it's tl;dr for you, it's the same conclusion as above but with more detailed legal discussion.
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Old 11-03-2013, 10:19 PM   #8
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Stigmas vs Defects.
This is a stigma and does not have to be disclosed; defects do.
The buyers don't have a case, your parents should be in the clear here.
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Old 11-04-2013, 08:42 AM   #9
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http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthr...ht=stigmatized
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Old 11-04-2013, 11:19 PM   #10
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A bunch of good answers in this thread and troutman posted a previous thread that was pretty deep in the topic.
Based on the situation your parents should be all good. The real problem is forcing the buyer and getting money in time to close on their new place. I would have their realtor in Airdrie/Calgary talking to the seller seeing if they can postpone the possession and most likely adding some money to cover expenses/troubles. If the sellers are in a position where they need the money for their purchase it will get ugly.
Good luck!
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:55 PM   #11
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http://www.calgarysun.com/2013/12/06...murder-suicide
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Old 12-07-2013, 01:02 PM   #12
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how did they find out? curious
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Old 12-07-2013, 03:49 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skudr248 View Post
how did they find out? curious
I'm guessing the neighbours
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Old 12-07-2013, 04:44 PM   #14
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I'm guessing the neighbours
I was going to guess that too.
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Old 12-07-2013, 04:47 PM   #15
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I would of guessed their child had a sixth sense. But it could of been the neighbours
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Old 12-08-2013, 09:24 AM   #16
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My guess is that skudr didn't bother to click the link.
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Old 12-13-2013, 05:42 PM   #17
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Terrible decision IMO, assuimng that the Sellers weren't asked and didn't actually lie to the Buyers (although I haven't read the judgment and maybe that's what happened)

Where does it stop? What if someone was raped in the house? What if it's been burglarized 10 times in 10 years? What if there was a grisly murder next door? What if the Hell's Angels Clubhouse is three blocks away and the house is on the way to their favourite hangout? When does the Buyer have to take responsibility for doing their own homework about things that may cause them concern, but not everyone else?
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Old 12-14-2013, 03:45 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMG_G View Post
Odd, the other case in Quebec was dismissed despite the owner not disclosing a suicide in the house.

http://canlii.ca/en/qc/qccq/doc/2006...6qccq1260.html
Quote:
[45] In such a case, it appears to us that it is up to buyers to ask specific questions reflecting the phobias, fears, or other subjective considerations that could, in their view, interfere with their full enjoyment of a building or even with their purchase of the home in the first place. Once such a question is asked, the seller’s obligation to make full disclosure is heightened, and the seller must not induce erroneous consent through silence or a failure to disclose an element that appears to be important to the buyer, at the risk of having the validity of the sale contested in cases where the other party would not have contracted or would have contracted on different terms had all the information been known (article 1401, C.C.Q.).

[46] The Court is of the opinion that the events and facts of the life of the residents of a residential property cannot normally be considered to be liable to significantly influence the consent of the adverse party, unless there have been questions asked about those events and facts.

[47] A death, suicide, or even a murder in a house cannot be considered to be something the seller is obliged to disclose to the buyer,[3] just as there is no obligation to disclose domestic violence, trespasses, births, marriages, baptisms, or other life events, whether happy or sad, that may have occurred there.
This was small claims court with the defendant seeking $7,000 in damages but couldn't really substantiate how they arrived at that value and why it would eliminate their fears of living in the house. Which does differ with the other case, at least that couple were saying they don't want the house and want their money back while these guys just wanted $7,000 for some reason.

Still, not a fan of the judgement in the Calgary Sun article. They received a refund for the house along with damages and kept the house? Something isn't adding up there at all.

In any case it's odd that there isn't a strict easy to find policy. It doesn't make sense that one verdict is saying that death and suicides don't need to be disclosed without being asked and a judge is awarding a couple a refund and damages for a buyer not disclosing a murder and suicide in the same province a couple years apart. Maybe the couple from the Sun article did ask and were lied to or something?
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Old 12-14-2013, 11:25 AM   #19
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Is there a way to access the actual quebec ruling from this case?
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Old 03-03-2014, 11:35 PM   #20
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well? Did the deal go through or not?
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