Flames Identity Crisis

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Ward’s style is actually very aggressive. Very heavy forechecking, heavy pinching which is a debatable style for the team’s personnel. These players maybe lack the attention to detail which leaves them vulnerable for easy counters and wide open neutral zones. This is not a fast team either so they don’t track back quick enough to break up all the odd man rushes. I’ve already established that this collection of players isn’t hard working, so it’s not uncommon to see a lot of half-assed attempts at playing the system so that’s basically shooting yourself in the foot. I remember the Avalanche definitely taking advantage of the Flames aggressiveness in the playoffs, so much so that I think it even surprised coach Jared Bednar.

The Flames might honestly be better playing a more conservative style and taking advantage of turnovers in the neutral zone. Heck, they scored a ton of goals short handed a couple years standing up at the blue line on the PK.

A lot of truth here. Thing is, there are players capable of the aggressive forecheck style. Lucic, Mangiapane, Dube, Bennett. Lindholm when he wants. Monahan is getting better. It has been Tkachuk’s game but his puck retrieval and protection is nowhere near what it was in the past.

It’s a tough style to play all the time and that’s why there’s inconsistency. You have to commit to getting after the puck and being physical. Second nature to a couple guys, but for a few it’s not and they have to sort of force themselves to remember .

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Joborule

As Jiri said in the blow it up thread, the defense and goaltending is now fine, but the team's offensive production is still a problem, and that's one component that hasn't been significantly altered still.

That 18-19 season is now looking like a anomaly, where the two scoring lines overperformed rather than play to their base level. The offensive core is underwhelming.

Agree wholeheartedly. The forwards on this team play with mindset of a highly skilled team, but the execution just isn’t there like other skilled teams. Monahan for instance is on pace for 8 goals this season, Tkachuk is on pace for 37 points, Gaudreau only had 58 points last season. Every year in the playoffs, the top players pull out their disappearing act.

The identity of this team is confusing. They want their skilled players to check, then score from checking. But I don’t find this team particularly good at checking especially against elite teams. But I’m not sure this team can rely solely on pure skill anyway because they’re not great at finishing.

Just watching the highlights of the Jets-Oilers game yesterday to use as an example of skill, McDavid and Draisaitl are obviously 2 of most skilled players in this league, so not much needs to be said there. But for the Jets, they didn’t need a ton of shots yesterday, but Mark Scheifele scores on a one timer bomb, Connor snipes a snap shot top shelf while still pivoting and Ehlers fires a missile past Smith after receiving a sweet feed from Connor. This team doesn’t even employ Laine anymore who might have a top 3 release in the game. Once Dubois gets healthy, this team could be dangerous. I honestly get a little jealous sometimes of all the skill most of the Canadian teams boast.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

A lot of truth here. Thing is, there are players capable of the aggressive forecheck style. Lucic, Mangiapane, Dube, Bennett. Lindholm when he wants. Monahan is getting better. It has been Tkachuk’s game but his puck retrieval and protection is nowhere near what it was in the past.

It’s a tough style to play all the time and that’s why there’s inconsistency. You have to commit to getting after the puck and being physical. Second nature to a couple guys, but for a few it’s not and they have to sort of force themselves to remember .

I’ve noticed a lot of people complaining about this team’s neutral zone play and why it’s so easy for the opposition to gain entry into this team’s offensive zone, it’s basically the Flames allowing teams to do so. They make it easy with this “tough style.” Might just be too difficult a system for this personnel. You have to be on your toes a lot and I’m just not sure they’re up to executing on a regular basis. Could explain this team’s inconsistencies and Jekyll and Hyde play.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by rotten42

Flames Identity - Vanilla

Like I said earlier, this team is KMart and Sears. Ok at everything, great at nothing. KMart and Sears failed. Can’t say for certain that’s the direction the Flames are heading, but they’re closer to perennially mediocre then perennially elite.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Like I said earlier, this team is KMart and Sears. Ok at everything, great at nothing. KMart and Sears failed.

KMart and Sears failed because most people don't shop at department stores anymore. So did Eaton's, Woodward's, Zellers, Target's Canadian operation, and a whole slew of U.S. chains. So maybe not the best comparison, unless you're saying that ‘hockey team’ is a losing identity for a hockey team.

Can’t say for certain that’s the direction the Flames are heading, but they’re closer to perennially mediocre then perennially elite.

Just for giggles, what do you consider a ‘perennially elite’ NHL team?

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

KMart and Sears failed because most people don't shop at department stores anymore. So did Eaton's, Woodward's, Zellers, Target's Canadian operation, and a whole slew of U.S. chains. So maybe not the best comparison, unless you're saying that ‘hockey team’ is a losing identity for a hockey team.



Just for giggles, what do you consider a ‘perennially elite’ NHL team?

KMart and Sears failed because most people don't shop at department stores anymore. So did Eaton's, Woodward's, Zellers, Target's Canadian operation, and a whole slew of U.S. chains. So maybe not the best comparison, unless you're saying that ‘hockey team’ is a losing identity for a hockey team.

Exactly and why did department stores fail? Because they specialize in nothing. If I want shoes, I’m not going to Sears to buy average quality shoes with below average service. I’ll go to a shoe store that specializes in shoes with the best selection and service.

KMart and Sears is a very apt comparison because much like the Flames, this team is ok at everything, but great at nothing. The philosophy is a failure. Treliving has had 7 years to improve this team, yet with all the trades and acquisitions he’s made, the team has continued to spin its wheels in same mud it did 7 years ago.

This theory might even explain this team’s slow starts because to have a good start, you generally have to dictate your style to your opponent. But as I’ve already established, this team isn’t particularly heavy or fast or hard working. Yet they’re playing this checking style where they sometimes check and look good, but when they don’t execute, they look downright awful and proceed to shoot themselves in the foot every other shift because this system leaves them vulnerable for easy counter attacks.

The only silver lining is that when this team actually does fall behind, their urgency does pick up and their skilled guys can make plays and they can complete comebacks. But I find this team presses too hard at times and hurts themselves in the process by trying to recoup 2-3 goals at once. But this team just isn’t skilled enough to score their way out of trouble like the Tampa Bay Lightning or the Leafs.


My standards for perennially elite isn’t that high. For instance, even though the Sharks haven’t won the Cup yet, they were playing at high level for a long long time. Vegas also looks poised to be the elite for a while. I mean they’ve already eclipsed the number of playoff series wins the Flames have had in 3 decades just in their first 3 seasons. That’s pretty pathetic.

[Harry Lime]

Article about the coaching staff taking a firm hand in the changing of the culture in San Jose, and the most important aspect of being a team on the ice. Hate San Jose, but love Boughner. This was after Simek was cheap shotted and injured.

“It looked to me like someone taking a shot at one of our players, and I didn’t like our response,” Boughner said on Monday morning, ahead of the Sharks’ 3-2 win over Anaheim. “We need to be a tight team on and off the ice. … I understand the game is tight at that point (the Sharks were trailing 1-0 early in the second period) but you need a response then, or somewhere else in the game. You can’t let other teams take liberties, and that’s something we will be addressing.”

https://theathletic.com/2395385/2021...esponse-simek/

[GranteedEV]

That was a good post. That said:

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Fast? NO
This team is actually kind of slow, slow players up and down the line up. Slow on the forecheck, slow on the backcheck, slow on puck pursuits, not a lot of breakaway speed either minus Gaudreau

Dube, Bennett, Backlund, and Mangiapane are all pretty fast. Playing Bennett on the wing takes most of his speed away, and starting Dube in the offensive zone so much takes most of his speed away too, though.

The team's decision to not play fast players they have available like Kylington, Phillips, and Zavgorodniy is certainly something we should be taking exception to, though.

I think this team "could" be fast - extremely fast. Much like the 2016 Penguins prior to a multitude of callups and a coaching change though, we've handicapped ourselves.

[GG51]

Is it only identity? Looks like the window has closed, even before it ever opened, this group goes nowhere. No super star, lots of dead weight, not good enough, and, not bad enough.
It’s damn sad, in a pandemic, finally there are hockey games, the games are not good night after night. Damn that’s hard.
Someone put a complete trade/sign list Tre did, then maybe we can see the answer.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

That was a good post. That said:



Dube, Bennett, Backlund, and Mangiapane are all pretty fast. Playing Bennett on the wing takes most of his speed away, and starting Dube in the offensive zone so much takes most of his speed away too, though.

The team's decision to not play fast players they have available like Kylington, Phillips, and Zavgorodniy is certainly something we should be taking exception to, though.

I think this team "could" be fast - extremely fast. Much like the 2016 Penguins prior to a multitude of callups and a coaching change though, we've handicapped ourselves.

How many 7th round picks step right into the NHL
The decision not to play Little Z is not something anyone should object to
He needs to play some pro first

[Macindoc]

I don't think they lack an identity. They just have the wrong identity. They are coached to be a dump and chase, collapse to the net, passive team, which is exactly what they have been. But they are a bunch of small, skilled players, and that identity does not suit them, nor does it suit today's fast, skilled NHL. As long as the coach insists that they must play this style, they will continue to be a bubble team at best.

[Dion]

[madmike]

Honestly it’s time to blow it up. I don’t see this group progressing much at all the way they’re built. Might as well get some assets back for them.

This would be career suicide for Treliving though, so it won’t happen. But you have to think he’s on the hot seat now - especially as the Ward hiring is 100% his.

[Vinny01]

My biggest gripes with the team comes down to work ethic. This is a group that has proven to be capable of being a top team if they are committed and motivated. Whenever we have a soft/players coach they can’t seem to get themselves motivated and they fall flat. The 7 game winning streak when Ward took over and the 10 game winning streak in Gulutzan’s first year were the only reasons they made the playoffs.

When they have a hard coach he seems to be able to get better results but only for a very short period of time. Hartley squeezed a magical run out of the team and Peters guided them to their best regular season in 30 years but the team responded the following year in both cases by being a terrible team that basically quit on the coach.

This team is heading towards huge changes it would seem.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by madmike

Honestly it’s time to blow it up. I don’t see this group progressing much at all the way they’re built. Might as well get some assets back for them.

This would be career suicide for Treliving though, so it won’t happen. But you have to think he’s on the hot seat now - especially as the Ward hiring is 100% his.

It won’t happen when they just signed an elite goalie for 6 years with a NMC. Zero chance they blow the team up for a rebuild. If the team is blown up it will be trades to have them in line to compete right away. I honestly thought that was what would happen this offseason but once that Jackets deal fell through it seems like the Flames decided to run it back one more time with hopes a stud goalie can move them forward.

[CroFlames]

This morning Rhett declared that the room must be a terrible room. Guys aren't playing for each other anymore, there is no identity and it due to not having a cohesive room.

This is a former NHLer.

[MillerTime GFG]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

This morning Rhett declared that the room must be a terrible room. Guys aren't playing for each other anymore, there is no identity and it due to not having a cohesive room.

This is a former NHLer.

Came to post the same thing. Always respect his opinion. A players only meeting in the first ~5 games of the season, after an ‘altercation’ at the end of the game with Chucky? And then Chucky being abysmal ever since, and the team showing no signs of improvement or an increase on their GAF metre? Yikes.

Room definitely stinks.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

I don't think they lack an identity. They just have the wrong identity.

They are coached to be a dump and chase, collapse to the net, passive team, which is exactly what they have been. But they are a bunch of small, skilled players, and that identity does not suit them, nor does it suit today's fast, skilled NHL.

This. 100% This.

The style that the coach (and I think GM) want to play, does not match the roster that is built on the ice. It's the coach and GM that are driving the identity crisis.

I think there were two steps here. At the 10 day break / all-star break in 18-19 the coaching staff decided they wanted to play heavier playoff hockey.

They made line up changes (Kylington out, Fantanberg in), stopped having fun (Purple Gatorade Dissappeared), and tried to play a more structured, defensive game.

It didn't work. They faltered down the stretch that year, got creamed in the playoffs, and the top players looked downright bad doing it.

Then the big transition point was that offseason.

Where instead of going back to what worked with this core, they decided to lean into the "Heavy, playoff hockey" mindset and went even further down the style that Macindoc detailed above.

Instead of losing to Colorado and saying "Damn, that team was fast, skilled, and played with pace, how do we play more like them?"

We decided to say "How do we get this small, skilled roster, to play more like the big, physical 10-11 Boston Bruins?"

And it's becoming more obvious. There is a reason that guys like Lucic, Robinson, Ritchie, come into the lineup and look okay. The style suits their skill set. Dump it in, get on the forecheck, hit somebody, grind it out in the corners.

Grit and Grind is being prioritized over skill and creativity in this system, and we just don't have the roster to play that way.

Originally Posted by CroFlames

This morning Rhett declared that the room must be a terrible room. Guys aren't playing for each other anymore, there is no identity and it due to not having a cohesive room.

This is a former NHLer.

And this doesn't surprise me.

Feels a lot like the end of Rhett's tenure as a Flame to be honest.

Wouldn't be surprised if there is a divide in the room between those that support Ward and want to play this system. And those that completely hate this style of play and don't want to play this grit and grind style he had them playing.

Very similar parallels to end of Rhetts time where there was a group in the dressing room that wanted to play a more offensive system, and a group in the dressing room that wanted to play a more defensive structured system.

[GioforPM]

The room is sick, I agree with Warrener. And maybe the style Ward coaches doesn’t work. It isn’t dump and chase though - I don’t know why people keep saying that. In fact, I think they’d be more successful if they did that. It’s “attempt to skate into the zone, get funnelled, and then give it up. Or attempt to skate it in and get your pass blocked at the blue line.

IMO I have to disagree that the roster is not built skill and creativity. Gaudreau is a skilled puck handler, a pretty good area passer. Aside from that, nah. Monahan is a guy who has good instincts, shoots well and goes into hard areas. Lucic is the same, with a better board game and a worse shot. Mangiapane and Dube are guys with a medium amount of skill who skate hard. Lindholm is a good 200 foot guy who can shoot. Backlund is the same, with more D and less O. Tkachuk - well on his game he’s a creative guy in tight and is good at protecting the puck (not this year).

[rogermexico]

That segment from Rhett was really something and it's worth taking a listen to once they post it on the podcast.

This is my Coles notes version from what I remember:
He talked about the divide on the Flames teams he was on between the offence-first forwards and the defence-first group. He was very deliberate to emphasize that it's not like they didn't respect or like each-other – they all got along, it was more a matter of, after a loss, Rhett and Reg and Kipper would say 'We could have won that game if there was a bit more back-checking' and Iggy and Tanguay would say 'We could have won that game if the D had got the puck up to us a bit quicker so we could score some goals.' Rhett said something to the effect of 'Both sides were probably right, but the problem was, we were never in agreement and pulling in the same direction.'

They talked about the current team and they quickly got to Tkachuk, the Muzzin thing, etc. They made it clear they were speculating. But Rhett started to get pretty passionate. He basically said 'If there is a group in the dressing room that wants Tkachuk to dial it back, and isn't willing to play with that edge, then shame on them. And if Tkachuk is pouting or not trying for whatever reason, then shame on him.'

He said, and I'm roughly paraphrasing from memory here, that what it looks like to him is that there are too many players that just don't care.

Pinder said something along the lines of 'You can't fix that – there's too many of them, it's not like you can ship them all out.'

And Rhett disagreed. He said 'You don't ship them all out - you identify the biggest problem in the leadership group, and you get rid of that person. Move them out. Lose the trade. Don't worry about the return - what matters is getting rid of someone and sending the message that the other guys that don't care won't be sheltered anymore.'

There was a really interesting moment. He got really emotional about it, and said something along the lines of 'Because what does it matter if you don't win? I was on some really good Flames teams but it didn't matter because we never won. Who remembers the 07/08 Flames?'

Anyway that's a rough re-telling. Go back and listen to it though, because it was quite a segment.