2018/2019 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

He is still over a ppg. He is on a cool streak but still is on pace for 85pts as a 20/21 year old. Better than Monahan, Gaudreau etc at the same age.

Gaudreau at age 21 was 2nd on this team at 29th in the NHL in scoring. Hudler was a fair bit ahead of him at 8th but most of us felt that was an anomaly as Gaudreau tended to be the better play driver while Hudler got his stick on a lot of tips that year and by most accountd overperformed.

Tkachuk at age 21 is, give-or-take, 4th on this team 27th in the NHL in scoring. Gaudreau is way ahead on the team at 4th and has a legitimate shot at the Art Ross if he heats up again.

I'm not sure Tkachuk is or has been "better" than Gaudreau at the same age. First of all there's an entire line soaking up the top matchups. I'd wager Gaudreau was already seeing top pairings by the end of November in his 21yo season. Tkachuk sees mostly second pairs. Next there's the whole thing about four other PPG players on this roster who all play on the same PP unit as Tkachuk. Tkachuk is a vital part of that PP but when everyone is scoring, it tends to diminish the value of every individual.

But I do think objectively speaking the fact that Tkachuk is over a PPG and in the 27-30 range in scoring, while Gaudreau had 64pts and finished 29th, should highlight the difference in scoring this year vs 2015.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Because the Backlund's primary line role is to check top lines, not to score goals. Frolik is at this point a little bit better of a possession player than Bennett, which keeps top line opponents hemmed in more often and allows Peters to play Bennett with Neal, which this far has been the only combination that gives us a solid 3rd line. I'm not advocating for Tkachuk-Backlund-Bennett to be reunited -I am telling you that calling their lack of production together "glaring" is a brutal claim.

When you have a ppg player in Tkachuk on your line. That line is expected to score/produce alongside Backlund. Frolik won the job over because the line started to produce right when the 3M line was re-established. Really don’t care about what your stats allegedly say either as it hasn’t been corroborated. From what I see, the 3M line is the better line both defensively and offensively.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moneyhands23]

2 week mark. In past years the biggest moves happen right around now.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Gaudreau at age 21 was 2nd on this team at 29th in the NHL in scoring. Hudler was a fair bit ahead of him at 8th but most of us felt that was an anomaly as Gaudreau tended to be the better play driver while Hudler got his stick on a lot of tips that year and by most accountd overperformed.

Tkachuk at age 21 is, give-or-take, 4th on this team 27th in the NHL in scoring. Gaudreau is way ahead on the team at 4th and has a legitimate shot at the Art Ross if he heats up again.

I'm not sure Tkachuk is or has been "better" than Gaudreau at the same age. First of all there's an entire line soaking up the top matchups. I'd wager Gaudreau was already seeing top pairings by the end of November in his 21yo season. Tkachuk sees mostly second pairs. Next there's the whole thing about four other PPG players on this roster who all play on the same PP unit as Tkachuk. Tkachuk is a vital part of that PP but when everyone is scoring, it tends to diminish the value of every individual.

But I do think objectively speaking the fact that Tkachuk is over a PPG and in the 27-30 range in scoring, while Gaudreau had 64pts and finished 29th, should highlight the difference in scoring this year vs 2015.

While the NHL ranking is important I think it is irrelevant to talk about team scoring. Gaudreau was 2nd on a team that clawed to the playoffs with 97pts. Tkachuk is 4th on a team in 2nd place overall on pace for 110pts.

If we look at rookie seasons perhaps we go back and look at what Tkachuk did as an 18 year old. Gaudreau and Monahan has their worst statistical seasons as a tandem this year and if it was not for the 3M line the Flames do not make the playoffs. The key element that turned the Backlund-Frolik line into one of the leagues best was adding Tkachuk who at 18 was already going up against the best players in the league. Johnny’s 5th year in the league and we are just hearing now how he can hold his own defensively against the leagues best. Tough to compare though as Gaudreau turned 21 a few months before the season started and Tkachuk turned 21 halfway into this year so much of what he has done was as a 20 year old.

Both are great players and we are lucky to have them. Johnny is currently a franchise player and Tkachuk has very similar amazing numbers around the same age so I believe he is also tracking to be a franchise player. Tkachuk brings the intangibles that have people calling him the next captain of the team. Gaudreau doesn’t wear a letter. Having said that I really am concerned this will cause the thread to go off the rails and turn into a Gaudreau vs Tkachuk debate. In my mind no question Gaudreau is the best player on this team today and the next several years but Tkachuk is 4.5 years younger and still possesses more upside.


If the Flames somehow add a Mark Stone at the deadline e I can’t wait to see what he does with Tkachuk and Backlund.

[Fan in Exile]

They're heading for a rebuild and not a lot of moveable assets that I would think they'd be willing to part with and gets much of a return. I would have thought Silfverberg would be available. They must at least be considering it.

[Kasi]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Stone is debatably better than Tkachuk and it is highly doubtful he will be better for the next 3 years.

We trade a 21 year old with team control for multiple UFA’s.

Shocking that a poster who posts a lot about squandering picks is willing to move our best player 21 or younger by several miles for older players.

Well for one this trade isn’t happening. I doubt Ottawa makes it without us putting in more. Calgary is not making it since it would shake up things too much. It was purely a hypothetical. And in that hypothetical I’d take it because I think the timeframe when Calgary loses out on that trade is 4 years down the road and in the next 3 years the trade would make Calgary better. Stone is a better player than Tkachuk now. Similar offense and much better in other areas.

Also not sure what you mean about the picks. The picks issue is completely unrelated to this hypothetical trade. The issue with trading picks or entry level players is that we need young impact players capable of playing on bottom line or third pair. Which is why I cringe at trade deals that include both Jankowski and Kylington. This trade idea completely sidesteps that. In this deal we’re basically trading Tkachuks impending 7-8 million deal for a slightly more expensive Stone deal. Our depth is unhurt in this, it’s even enhanced if we get someone like that defensemen who new era names or Dzingel.

[browna]

If Treliving makes a move of any significance, plastic peices like Czarnik and 3rd round picks aren't going to be enough.

If he's going to make anything more the a ripple for a move, there will be outrage by some or many for the return, you can already see it in the threads. People want a goalie, defenseman and two forwards, one a scorer, one a power forward, but all for magic beans, rentals or not.

If he's going to put more eggs in the basket at the deadline for this year and next, Treliving has to figure out which of the young guys like Janko, Bennett, Andersson or Kylington, are really key peices for the next 2-4 months and 2-4 years, and which of them may turn into post preseason scoring champ Dustin Boyd, on another team (or while on this team, next year).

You're going to have to give to get.

[agulati]

Assets such as Dube, Kylington, Phillips etc will definitely be involved in discussion for Top tier rentals/players. Tre can probably work his magic, but we will still have to give some, to get someone.

[Roof-Daddy]

I'm confident Treliving wont part with the 1st or any of our top prospects for a rental.

If he parts with assets like that IMO it'll be for a player with term left or a player he's confident will agree to an extension.

[Harry Lime]

Like many around here, I keep coming back to Gustav Nyquist, Eric Staal and Marcus Johansson as the players that check the boxes of UFA, hungry for a Cup, and capable of playing second line minutes. They can all likely be had for Mangiapane (RFA), Czarnik (one year left) and a mid pick. Even Nyquist is playing for a cap team that likely doesn't bring him back next season regardless, and would trade for cost control.

I think it unlikely Calgary goes big game hunting.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Kasi

Well for one this trade isn’t happening. I doubt Ottawa makes it without us putting in more. Calgary is not making it since it would shake up things too much. It was purely a hypothetical. And in that hypothetical I’d take it because I think the timeframe when Calgary loses out on that trade is 4 years down the road and in the next 3 years the trade would make Calgary better. Stone is a better player than Tkachuk now. Similar offense and much better in other areas.

Also not sure what you mean about the picks. The picks issue is completely unrelated to this hypothetical trade. The issue with trading picks or entry level players is that we need young impact players capable of playing on bottom line or third pair. Which is why I cringe at trade deals that include both Jankowski and Kylington. This trade idea completely sidesteps that. In this deal we’re basically trading Tkachuks impending 7-8 million deal for a slightly more expensive Stone deal. Our depth is unhurt in this, it’s even enhanced if we get someone like that defensemen who new era names or Dzingel.

So you cringe at including Jankowski or Kylington in deals but you are all for trading recently turned 21 year old franchise cornerstone in Tkachuk for guys 27-28 years old? Because their contracts would be similar?

At worst Tkachuk gets as much money as Stone on the next contract but remember he is 5.5 years younger. When I bring up picks I talk about the long term contention of the team. Trading a guy who is just entering his prime for a guy who is closer to exiting his shortens the window.

We know the deal would never happen but it is beyond laughable that you think the Sens want more. I sincerely appreciate the good laugh like you have to be trolling right?

The other prices help? Dzingel sure he would be nice but is also a pending UFA so would likely be gone in the summer or require a Frolik like contract to keep. We would get him and a Dman that doesn’t crack our top 6 when healthy.

Great trade sign me up.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Like many around here, I keep coming back to Gustav Nyquist, Eric Staal and Marcus Johansson as the players that check the boxes of UFA, hungry for a Cup, and capable of playing second line minutes. They can all likely be had for Mangiapane (RFA), Czarnik (one year left) and a mid pick. Even Nyquist is playing for a cap team that likely doesn't bring him back next season regardless, and would trade for cost control.

I think it unlikely Calgary goes big game hunting.

Minny is in a playoff spot and will likely trade Stall for junk?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Flamenspiel]

Its crazy to trade top five(or top 4 defensemen) roster players for a rental like Stone, the only way you trade for Stone is on a conditional pick basis similar to how San Jose traded for Kane last year.

You trade the roster players that cover the price of a rental, which would be players lower down the Roster, then you add conditional picks if he signs in the summer. There is really no way of knowing in advance wether he signs in Calgary in June or July.

[Kasi]

You’re presuming Tkachuk keeps getting better. I’m presuming he’s peaked. That difference of opinion is likely why we view this differently. And yes I think Ottawa would likely balk at trading 3 players for one, even with how good Tkachuk is.

As for the long term contention of the team here I’m viewing this within the lens of Giordano staying good and Gaudreau’s contract. So next 3 years. I’m fairly confident that Stone and other assets from Ottawa gives them a better chance of winning within that window. And a massively better chance to win this year. I don’t care that 2023 Tkachuk is better than 2023 Stone. They’ll be past their window by then.

On the matter of young contracts sadly the Toronto signings have made the distinction between UFA and RFA very little. To me it’s a contrast of two player making 8 or more million. But I think a major factor in how the Flames have done well this year is we don’t have a third pairing or 3/4 lines constantly being rolled. And while Hathaway has stepped up that is mostly on the back of players making more than the minimum on the forward side and our depth of young defensemen on the backend. We trade that and we’re left with players like Lazar and others. We had so little minor league depth that we really can’t trade a lot without being stuck with crap players clogging up the roster. That’s why to me the constant ideas here to sign both Stone and Tkachuk could never work. It chokes the bottom of the lineup too much, both in using up too much salary cap and in spending too much of our extremely thin depth to make those deals.

[TheScorpion]

Why has Tkachuk peaked at age 21? Jeez, some people have ridiculous expectations.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Stone is debatably better than Tkachuk and it is highly doubtful he will be better for the next 3 years.

We trade a 21 year old with team control for multiple UFA’s.

Shocking that a poster who posts a lot about squandering picks is willing to move our best player 21 or younger by several miles for older players.

This is about following through on the concept of not being afraid to trade away an asset of substantial value - the future for the now. That's exactly what this trade is. We immediately get better with depth at the areas where we are "weak" and only have to give up one asset to do so. Yes, its a big asset, but so was Brett Hull and that won us a cup.

Originally Posted by Vinny01

So you cringe at including Jankowski or Kylington in deals but you are all for trading recently turned 21 year old franchise cornerstone in Tkachuk for guys 27-28 years old? Because their contracts would be similar?

Stone and Dzingel are both 26. Both are in their primes. Both are top three in scoring for their team. In a league where depth rules supreme, we get two top six forwards for one. That is a win for any team trying to win a championship.

At worst Tkachuk gets as much money as Stone on the next contract but remember he is 5.5 years younger. When I bring up picks I talk about the long term contention of the team. Trading a guy who is just entering his prime for a guy who is closer to exiting his shortens the window.

What??? You're not talking about long term health and contention of the team. You've only talked about the immediate success of the team. Otherwise you wouldn't trading away every single pick the Flames have, and every young cost controlled player we have that is worth a crap. That's fine, I get it. But don't complain then complain when someone suggests an actual trade that might have the potential to come fruition. You aren't getting the top end talents you need to take a run at the cup by giving up minor assets. You get those by using an asset you don't want to give up.

We know the deal would never happen but it is beyond laughable that you think the Sens want more. I sincerely appreciate the good laugh like you have to be trolling right?

I think you don't appreciate the quality of the assets being given up, and are over rating the player we are giving up. Tkachuk is a great asset, but you're getting back a great asset, and two really good secondary assets in return. You are improving the team by 15-20 goals, and 25-40 points in scoring. You are getting some depth on defense we are missing.

The other prices help? Dzingel sure he would be nice but is also a pending UFA so would likely be gone in the summer or require a Frolik like contract to keep. We would get him and a Dman that doesn’t crack our top 6 when healthy.

Sure, and Mike Stone doesn't crack our lineup either. Fact of the matter is Treliving is looking for another player that provides depth on the blueline. This trade accomplishes it.

What makes this an incredibly good deal is the Flames improve that second line while maintaining the integrity of the rest of the lineup, and then also don't sell the rest of the future down the road, allowing them to continue bringing in good young players to keep the cap in check, and keep the team competitive.

Great trade sign me up.

Glad you're finally coming around and seeing the value in the deal. This ain't rocket science.

BTW, I think the Sens don't even consider this deal. I don't think there is enough there to satisfy them. I think it takes more.

[Kasi]

I was going to write a post but yeah New Eras post basically echoes most of my points. As for Tkachuk I just don’t adore his game as much as others do. I hope he continues to improve and I think he will in other ways, but I don’t think his scoring will go above what he has done this year.

[jg13]

Originally Posted by Kasi

I was going to write a post but yeah New Eras post basically echoes most of my points. As for Tkachuk I just don’t adore his game as much as others do. I hope he continues to improve and I think he will in other ways, but I don’t think his scoring will go above what he has done this year.

Can you explain why? He's constantly drawing the other teams top line 5 on 5 because he's playing alongside our best shutdown centre. Constantly starting in the defensive zone and doesn't have a top 6 RW to play with. And he's 21 years old lots of room to grow still.

[DomeFoam]

If the Flames want Mark Stone its starting with Valimaki and a 1st and anything less is not a topic of discussion.

Boyle just delivered a 2nd round pick. Brian ####ing Boyle!

If you are okay with giving up the last remaining blue chipper in our system and the guy that will replace him in this years draft for potentially 3 months of Mark Stone, who may or may not play like Mark Stone in a new city, with new teammates, system, coach etc. right from the get go, then thats just fine and dandy but I like the team we have now who hasn't lost convincingly since Pittsburgh.

[home_sweet_dome]

Originally Posted by DomeFoam

If the Flames want Mark Stone its starting with Valimaki and a 1st and anything less is not a topic of discussion.

Jarome freaking Iginla got traded for a late 1st and a couple C prospects.

Stone is a pending UFA, not someone with term left at some bargain contract. It's called a rental for a reason.

So yes a 1st + something significantly less valuable than Valimaki can get it done.