2020/21 International Club Football Thread

[Matty81]

Originally Posted by Bagor

No. That doesn't seem about right at all. What are you trying to say that Unitef/Liverpool led the other four clubs into this mess? Levy is a big boy. He very much knew what he was doing.

As for a blanket ban for the next three years for all six teams that's not equally fair either given you're looking at punishing United, Liverpool, City and Chelsea by denying them access to a competition that they're inclined to qualify for whereas Spurs and Arsenal get off lighter?

It's a case here of the reward was going to be the same for all. Punishment should be the same.
Banned for the next x times of qualifying for the CL.

If it takes some teams three years to complete the ban and others eight so be it.

I have no idea who the actual ringleaders/initiators were. But if a couple owners pushed this forward and basically threatened other clubs into joining or being left behind, they absolutely deserve a bigger punishment. The other clubs who caved are still complicit. Early reports make it look like Juve, Real, Barca, Liverpool and Man U are at the core of it.

Anyway I hope it is a moot point. As everyone in the uk is saying today, what is really needed are systematic changes to make sure it doesn't happen again. Or they will try again somewhere down the line.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by devo22

it's amazing, really. We are talking about extremely rich businessmen looking over some of the biggest football clubs in the world, you'd expect they'd have some kind of plan when they do stuff like this. But they had absolutely nothing, it's incredible. I guess if you want to do a coup like this, you'd have to do it bit by bit and ensure you have actually have people on your side. You'd have to try to have your sponsors on board, then the fans (at least a part of them) and you'd need to work out all the details regarding the format, the setup and so on. And they had nothing. Even their website looked like something from 20 years ago.

Dude....you're preaching to the Converted.

I am astonished at how poorly conceived and planned this was considering how much money and experience was behind it.

This whole plan looks like it was conjured together at the last second by disinterested and un-educated children.

If someone had shown me the background of this before it went public I'd have thought it was a prank.

[agulati]

Originally Posted by devo22

it's amazing, really. We are talking about extremely rich businessmen looking over some of the biggest football clubs in the world, you'd expect they'd have some kind of plan when they do stuff like this. But they had absolutely nothing, it's incredible. I guess if you want to do a coup like this, you'd have to do it bit by bit and ensure you have actually have people on your side. You'd have to try to have your sponsors on board, then the fans (at least a part of them) and you'd need to work out all the details regarding the format, the setup and so on. And they had nothing. Even their website looked like something from 20 years ago.

Yeah it should have been a better designed venture with more answers to the questions that were obviously going to be asked. I think they wanted to get ahead of the champions league changes announcement, and continue working on it after that. For such a seismic change, which they probably should have been able to expect a lot of voice and noise over, a half baked solution doesn't cut it.


As I had said earlier, I was definitely liking this setup, but you cannot have such a proposal without answers the fans/media/coaches were demanding. Wrong place, wrong time and on top of that wrong leadership and wrong methodology.

I hope they do something about the lack of FFP. Violations should count for something. Man City shouldn't have gotten away with what it did. Some other clubs are also guilty of pushing the edges and going beyond.

[GirlySports]

I dont think they expected the FIFA and UEFA strong responses either.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I dont think they expected the FIFA and UEFA strong responses either.

then they're even dumber than I thought. They've been threatening to break away for years now, this didn't come out of left field for UEFA/FIFA. They were prepared and knew where they could apply pressure (banning players from the NT etc). I think what really caught them off guard was the UK government, plus the fan backlash. I mean, they knew that was coming, but they have ignored that before (like the Glazers taking over United). But they underestimated the size of the protests.

Originally Posted by agulati

As I had said earlier, I was definitely liking this setup, but you cannot have such a proposal without answers the fans/media/coaches were demanding. Wrong place, wrong time and on top of that wrong leadership and wrong methodology.

I mean, the thing that shouldn't get lost in all of this is that an alternative idea to the CL/EL setup could have actually been a really good thing. The plans for the revamped CL completely suck and are barely any better than the ESL plan. If they had come up with a plan that actually included promotion/relegation and didn't just come across as a closed shop for the so called "elite" (lol), then the reaction would have been different.

I guess the bottom line here is that fans now have to realize that they still hold power. It can't go to waste.

[CroFlames]

Without a strong commissioner with the North American sports entertainment mentality, the owners were bound to fail. They literally need to be protected from themselves and their stupidity.

If the ESL somehow poached a Gary, a Roger, or an Adam to be the ring leader, meat shield, and public face, they could have made this work. As it stands they are woefully idiotic and thankfully they didn't think to do this.

I agree with the others here that the clubs that partook either need to be punished, or rules need to be changed to prevent this from occurring again. Ideally, move to the German 50+1 rule and voila.

[Senator Clay Davis]

I am curious what the reaction would have been if they simply went with an open competition. I think people would have been pissed, but probably would have settled on it as the lesser of the evils between that and the CL revamp. But still, at the end of this other than the public humiliation these clubs are mostly going to come out ahead. They'll get more money and power from UEFA, they get more protection for qualifying, they just don't get the big bag of cash, instead just a decently sized bag of cash. And they won't suffer any serious consequences because it's bad for UEFA and the FA's bottom lines.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Matty81

I have no idea who the actual ringleaders/initiators were. But if a couple owners pushed this forward and basically threatened other clubs into joining or being left behind, they absolutely deserve a bigger punishment. The other clubs who caved are still complicit. Early reports make it look like Juve, Real, Barca, Liverpool and Man U are at the core of it.

Now you're way out into baseless speculation territory talking about things like Ed threatening Levy to join or else. As mentored Levy is a big boy able to make his own decisions.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

I am curious what the reaction would have been if they simply went with an open competition. I think people would have been pissed, but probably would have settled on it as the lesser of the evils between that and the CL revamp. But still, at the end of this other than the public humiliation these clubs are mostly going to come out ahead. They'll get more money and power from UEFA, they get more protection for qualifying, they just don't get the big bag of cash, instead just a decently sized bag of cash. And they won't suffer any serious consequences because it's bad for UEFA and the FA's bottom lines.

And that's why maybe, just maybe their best, cheapest and least drawn out way of trying to make this happen was to do what they did and simply go for it. Ye old better to ask for forgiveness than permission approach.

[afc wimbledon]

The great thing about this is its killed off the idea for a decade, it will rear its ugly head again but not for some time, had they handled this better, say announced they weren't going to compete in the Champions league but started their own open to everyone super cup they could have done it in stages and it would have worked.

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by Bagor

No. That doesn't seem about right at all. What are you trying to say that Unitef/Liverpool led the other four clubs into this mess? Levy is a big boy. He very much knew what he was doing.

As for a blanket ban for the next three years for all six teams that's not equally fair either given you're looking at punishing United, Liverpool, City and Chelsea by denying them access to a competition that they're inclined to qualify for whereas Spurs and Arsenal get off lighter?

It's a case here of the reward was going to be the same for all. Punishment should be the same.
Banned for the next x times of qualifying for the CL.

If it takes some teams three years to complete the ban and others eight so be it.

In the end its gonna end up being fines

UEFA already said they are welcomed back

The PL will end up saying they dont want to punish the fans of the clubs, so it will be fines and I bet some executives have to go, I.e woodward yesterday. Maybe a points deduction next year, but not enough to matter, especially since all 6 will get it.

The narrative that it was united, liverpool, and arsenal as ringleaders is already being pushed, I'm guessing helped by the other 3 clubs.

Which is kinds silly because like you say Levy is a big boy and makes his own decisions, i did at least respect his statement yesterday, giving reasons why he did it, prefer that to John Henrys pr written video statement where he meant none of it.

[GirlySports]

If a Super League were to ever work, which I don't think it never will, it would need a Commissioner out front doing all the press. A Gary Bettman explaining why it's needed. The owners of the 12 would have to relinquish power to Gary. Which is why it'll never happen.

The American owners want an American style league structure, they need a commissioner.

[Cappy]

I don't know if he would've been a ringleader but for sure Daniel Levy wasn't being dragged into this arrangement against his will.

Given the financial limitations the Spurs have (on their own accord) plus the new stadium, the immediate influx of 3.5 billion would have been a tasty little treat - not to mention guaranteed membership in the exclusive club.

[Matty81]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

If a Super League were to ever work, which I don't think it never will, it would need a Commissioner out front doing all the press. A Gary Bettman explaining why it's needed. The owners of the 12 would have to relinquish power to Gary. Which is why it'll never happen.

The American owners want an American style league structure, they need a commissioner.

My sense is it wouldn't make a huge difference if the concept remained the same because it was so hated. Just a guess but think that even a bettman couldn't have saved it. The way for them to ruin the relegation/promotion system was to incrementally chip away at it like they are doing with the CL. Cut down the number of relegation spots over a longer period of time. Put in promotion or qualification based on "history".

But like I said before, hopefully this results in the fan ownership model becoming more widespread. For me the sports world needs more competition not less of it. The north American approach of maxing ticket prices and forcing "parity" is not developing the same kind of tribal passionate support that soccer does in Europe, South America etc.

[Matty81]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Now you're way out into baseless speculation territory talking about things like Ed threatening Levy to join or else. As mentored Levy is a big boy able to make his own decisions.

It's on multiple media sources that city and Chelsea joined 11th hour out of fear of being left behind economically. It's speculative but not much of a reach to think that the initiating clubs and executives pushing it messaged that. I think they all deserve to be punished regardless, and if there weren't a couple of clubs who set it all up, for example cut the deal with jp Morgan and then politcked and tried to bring others onboard, equal punishment is fine.

But if it surfaces that a few of these clubs were the driving force who cut the deal and tried to demolish uefa and the CL, screw those guys even more

[devo22]

that latest Perez interview was great entertainment ... the man is actually insane. Lots of good quotes, but I think "without ESL we can't buy a Mbappe or Haaland" was my favorite. So what? He really thinks it's their god given right. Really shows how detached these people are from reality. Also pretty funny that he laments the financial state of the clubs and claims they are pretty much on their deathbed when at the same time he goes and showers Alaba with money.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Matty81

It's on multiple media sources that city and Chelsea joined 11th hour out of fear of being left behind economically. It's speculative

I haven't read or heard this anywhere. You got links?

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by devo22

that latest Perez interview was great entertainment ... the man is actually insane. Lots of good quotes, but I think "without ESL we can't buy a Mbappe or Haaland" was my favorite. So what? He really thinks it's their god given right. Really shows how detached these people are from reality. Also pretty funny that he laments the financial state of the clubs and claims they are pretty much on their deathbed when at the same time he goes and showers Alaba with money.

Got to be mentioned.

“The owners are mostly not English. They’re not in it to make money, they have teams in America, love sport and they found themselves in a position they didn’t expect. They’re old, they got scared,” said Pérez, who is 74.

[devo22]

absolutely sensational. Had to check if that's from an Onion article.

[kobasew19]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/22/s...ue-soccer.html

Amazing read.