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Old 06-17-2021, 07:55 PM   #3161
Karl
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This team can hit but problem is that most of the other teams are actually much better at hitting when it truly matters than our team is. In other words, our team is so anti-clutch.

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Old 06-17-2021, 07:56 PM   #3162
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Oh god. It's Chatwood time.
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Old 06-17-2021, 07:59 PM   #3163
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This team can hit but problem is that most of the other teams are actually much better at clutch hitting than our team is.
You keep saying this like it is the problem. It is not the problem. The Jays are tied for 6th in the majors in runs scored.

The problem is the bullpen. Nine blown saves. And that doesn't count games like tonight where the pen sucked but it isn't a blown save
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Old 06-17-2021, 08:01 PM   #3164
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This team can hit but problem is that most of the other teams are actually much better at hitting when it truly matters than our team is. In other words, our team is so anti-clutch.
Yeah very much this. Toescar is like our one good clutch hitter. (Even Vlad isnít that good in clutch situations) I attest this much to our team being young. Bullpen is yeah not good now (Castro has #### the bed sadly) but our starters have been quite good. This team was never built to prevent runs and as bad as the bullpen has underperformed the starters have over performed.
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Old 06-17-2021, 08:07 PM   #3165
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While Iím watching the hockey game and keeping an eye on the Jays, I donít think Iíve ever seen a baseball team drop so many games because of one position. Iím not an encyclopedia or anything but has anyone seen this night in and out?
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Old 06-17-2021, 08:22 PM   #3166
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You keep saying this like it is the problem. It is not the problem. The Jays are tied for 6th in the majors in runs scored.

The problem is the bullpen. Nine blown saves. And that doesn't count games like tonight where the pen sucked but it isn't a blown save
Itís both. Sure runs are sixth but thatís just one measure of offence. Other measures arenít quite as charitable. Yes the Jays bullpen sucks but their starters have been quite good. I donít think we would have predicted this bullpen performance but I donít think many of us thought the Jays would have five solid starters now. Even thought they got there in an odd way the Jays pitching overall numbers are about what I expected.

As for the hitters this team is very poor in high leverage and clutch situations. We blow teams out and struggle in close and late situations. I mostly blame it on this team being young and not having Springer and Kirk. Also doesnít help that we lack hitters with good on base skills and have a bit too many free swingers in Bo, Grichuk, Gurriel, Tellez and just some bad hitters like our catchers. Some bad luck to as well but I can think of many games where the game went to extras and the Jays flailed away trying for home runs when just playing smart would have been better. For example those two games against Tampa that they had multiple innings in extras at home and blew it. Yet when those games were lost we blamed our bullpen instead of blaming our hitters for not doing anything when they could.
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Old 06-17-2021, 08:24 PM   #3167
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Yeah very much this. Toescar is like our one good clutch hitter. (Even Vlad isnít that good in clutch situations) I attest this much to our team being young. Bullpen is yeah not good now (Castro has #### the bed sadly) but our starters have been quite good. This team was never built to prevent runs and as bad as the bullpen has underperformed the starters have over performed.
Vlad isnít clutch ? Heís hitting .420 with runners in scoring position which I believe leads the majors

I know people like to throw out random statements but can we at least ensure some due diligence is done
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Old 06-17-2021, 08:36 PM   #3168
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Vlad isn’t clutch ? He’s hitting .420 with runners in scoring position which I believe leads the majors

I know people like to throw out random statements but can we at least ensure some due diligence is done
You might want to go look it up yourself.

https://library.fangraphs.com/misc/clutch/

Vlad is a -0.01 which is neutral. He’s not unclutch but he’s not clutch either. What he is is really good but it’s not like he’s better in close situations. Teoscar and to a lesser extent Bo are really the only ones who step their numbers up when it’s tight. Of course this is not really predictive it is it’s just a descriptive stat. Hopefully they can improve. And it’s not like you can’t be a good team even with that. San Diego for example I believe trails the league.

Edit: also Boston by far leads the league which likely helps explain why despite having a ####ty starting rotation they have as good a record as they do. Solid bullpen plus good hitters who can help catch them up leads to lots of close wins.

Last edited by Kasi; 06-17-2021 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 06-17-2021, 08:41 PM   #3169
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Oh god. Another pitcher, Beasley, can't find the strike zone and is flirting with disaster.
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Old 06-17-2021, 08:43 PM   #3170
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I’m starting to think the Jays are going to get swept.


By the Orioles
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Old 06-17-2021, 08:47 PM   #3171
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This is the most pathetic bullpen I've ever seen. At this point anyone would be better than these plugs.
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Old 06-17-2021, 08:53 PM   #3172
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Did Montoya just pinch hit Adam's in place of 3 for 3 Mcguiire??

edit: yup and Adams hit into a dp to end the game lol
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Old 06-17-2021, 09:00 PM   #3173
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Yikes.

This is getting demoralizing. Hopefully the players who are playing well don't start to get dragged down and slip.

This team needs a good, regular 3B, and if he's a lefty bat that can hit it would be a huge bonus.

I know Donaldson is a jack ass, but if the Twins will eat a chunk of that contract he could be a huge addition if he can check his ego at the door.
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Old 06-17-2021, 09:15 PM   #3174
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You might want to go look it up yourself.

https://library.fangraphs.com/misc/clutch/

Vlad is a -0.01 which is neutral. He’s not unclutch but he’s not clutch either. What he is is really good but it’s not like he’s better in close situations. Teoscar and to a lesser extent Bo are really the only ones who step their numbers up when it’s tight. Of course this is not really predictive it is it’s just a descriptive stat. Hopefully they can improve. And it’s not like you can’t be a good team even with that. San Diego for example I believe trails the league.

Edit: also Boston by far leads the league which likely helps explain why despite having a ####ty starting rotation they have as good a record as they do. Solid bullpen plus good hitters who can help catch them up leads to lots of close wins.
Did you read it ? It compares the player against THEMSELF. So Vladdy - the best player in the league - hits the same in clutch vs his normal performance

You wanted him to hit better then the best player in the game in the clutch facing the best opposition ?
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Old 06-17-2021, 09:27 PM   #3175
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That’s what clutch means. Does a player step up his game when the game is tight? Bonds for all the accolades he got had a long rep as a player who crumbled in those situations. Schilling was the opposite a borderline hall of famer already who went to insanely good in pressure situations. Players like him and Rivera and others do do that. In another sport Robert Horry was a solid player who was incredibly clutch. Clutch just asks do you do better or worse in high or low leverage situations. Vlad is neutral. Which is fine his numbers are insane and just doing normal is not the problem. But Grichuk, Gurriel and Biggio certainly are.

Anyway it is mostly a descriptive stat and doesn’t really have much value as predicted. But the fact that Boston is +5 and we’re -3 as a team has a lot to do with why their record is so much better despite similar run differentials.
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Old 06-17-2021, 10:00 PM   #3176
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Iím starting to think the Jays are going to get swept.


By the Orioles
Haha yep. The way this season is going it's starting to feel that way.
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Old 06-17-2021, 10:12 PM   #3177
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Thatís what clutch means. Does a player step up his game when the game is tight? Bonds for all the accolades he got had a long rep as a player who crumbled in those situations. Schilling was the opposite a borderline hall of famer already who went to insanely good in pressure situations. Players like him and Rivera and others do do that. In another sport Robert Horry was a solid player who was incredibly clutch. Clutch just asks do you do better or worse in high or low leverage situations. Vlad is neutral. Which is fine his numbers are insane and just doing normal is not the problem. But Grichuk, Gurriel and Biggio certainly are.

Anyway it is mostly a descriptive stat and doesnít really have much value as predicted. But the fact that Boston is +5 and weíre -3 as a team has a lot to do with why their record is so much better despite similar run differentials.
I like different narratives. Its part of talking baseball. But there comes a time where someone truly jumps the shark. And your last couple have hit that mark with flying colours. Anyone who can place one iota of blame on Vladdy has no idea what they are talking about. The dude just hit a tying Homerun with 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th just 4 games ago. He had a leadoff single against Chapman last night. He has literally done everything he can to win ballgames. Its not his fault that the bullpen is the most embarrassing thing in baseball. Nor is the fact the Chucky 'toyo continues to make baffling decisions like moving Randal up to the 4 spot tonight.

There's warts all over this team. But hitting, and especially Vladdy, is not the issue.
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Old 06-17-2021, 10:14 PM   #3178
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Disagree with the un-clutch take. These supposedly unclutch Jays unclutched their way from a 3-0 deficit early in the game to a 4-3 lead into the 7th inning. The issue is a depleted bullpen. They have a terrible, horrible, awful bullpen comprised of cast offs from worse teams than the Jays!
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Old 06-18-2021, 09:04 AM   #3179
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Shatwood needs to go

Our blowpen as of late has made my heart rate worse. Injuries certainly have hurt this team, but we really need better pitchers that aren’t always going to cost us games.
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Old 06-18-2021, 09:07 AM   #3180
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Shatwood needs to go

Our blowpen as of late has made my heart rate worse. Injuries certainly have hurt this team, but we really need better pitchers that arenít always going to cost us games.
Jays have over-used their bull pen and it shows

They went into the season with a lack of quality starters....

Injuries are a problem for sure

However the every 5th day, being a bull pen day was a huge mistake
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