2017/2018 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[Bar-Down]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

One thing I love about this thread is that we have all come to the consensus that we are going to have a league dominant top 6 with :

Gaudreau - Monahan - Foo
Tkachuk - Jankowski - Bennett

And the best shutdown line in the universe :

Ferland - Backlund - Frolik

Unity. It warms the cockles of my heart. Maybe below the cockles. Maybe in the sub-cockle area.

Maybe in the liver. Maybe in the kidneys. Maybe even in the colon. We don't know...

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I guess you have to ask yourself - does Bennett make a lot of plays that his line-mates kill, or is just not making a lot of plays?

I would say that despite certain peoples' critcisims of Bennett "doing too much himself" it was the opposite that I observed. Often Bennett gave up on his own skill and would dump the puck in, and then that line played a lot of dump and chase where the RWer usually failed on the chase part. I don't think Bennett is a player who inherently thrives in dumping and chasing (which is why he had more success under Hartley and fewer penalties), despite his forechecking ability, and I think ultimately Bennett's WHOLE LINE made very few plays using their puck skills to generate early offense. When Jagr was on that line, all three guys were carrying the puck through the neutral zone and this was resulting in plays, albeit not puck luck as Jagr in his final two seasons in the NHL could not score goals. Bennett was every bit a part of the success of the Jagr-Bennett-Versteeg and Bennett-Jankowski-Jagr lines.

Once Hathaway replaced Jagr the puck luck shot to the sky but slowly the whole line started edging more and more towards dump and chase. The mindless dump and chase is when Bennett and Jankowski both stopped producing.

That said, it would be false to say they didn't make a lot of plays, as they did generate a lot of chances from dangerous aras (out of that cycle / dump and chase which were however against set defenses and goaltenders). But it's a lot easier to produce actual points on the rush and with controlled entries than it is via dump and chase.


Overall, I think Bennett makes plenty of plays 5v5 and criticisms of his play a la CliffFletcher's post earlier are overblown - for most of last season after the early slump, Bennett comfortably sat in the top five of the team's 5v5 producers per minute and only fell off in the final game when Jankowski edged past him with a four goal game, but that game itself was basically August hockey from a Vegas perspective. He struggles on the power play as of late, which suggest a lack of role. Often you would see him on the right circle waiting for a one timer only for Hamilton to elect to shoot the puck. Bennett didn't always suck on the PP, that happened after Gulutzan came. Granted, even under Hartley he lacked a role fitting his skillset, but I think that has more to do with the fact that ideally, Bennett's spot on a power play is as the bumper. I've observed his vision from that area as being very strong. Anyways I digress.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Lazar played with Monahan & Gaudreau. He looked like Lazar.

Bennett looked like he was shot out of a cannon when he played up with those two.

Could he sustain that pace over the whole year or would he be like Ferland? Don't know, but his skill set should be above Ferland's and I would have liked to see what he could produce over the course of more than a few games.

I also would have loved to see more of Bennett-Jankowski-Tkachuk.

To get the thread back on topic, I haven't heard any recent trade rumors nor do I have anything to speculate on presently.

In one game. Not the others.

I don't remember Lazar with the top line at all. I suppose it was near the end when the whole team gave up. But talk about a guy with inconsistent linemates. He had at least 10 combos, none at over 20% (and the top one was Stajan and Brouwer).

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I would say that despite certain peoples' critcisims of Bennett "doing too much himself" it was the opposite that I observed. Often Bennett gave up on his own skill and would dump the puck in, and then that line played a lot of dump and chase where the RWer usually failed on the chase part. I don't think Bennett is a player who inherently thrives in dumping and chasing (which is why he had more success under Hartley and fewer penalties), despite his forechecking ability, and I think ultimately Bennett's WHOLE LINE made very few plays using their puck skills to generate early offense. When Jagr was on that line, all three guys were carrying the puck through the neutral zone and this was resulting in plays, albeit not puck luck as Jagr in his final two seasons in the NHL could not score goals. Bennett was every bit a part of the success of the Jagr-Bennett-Versteeg and Bennett-Jankowski-Jagr lines.

The funny part of it is, it's indisputable that Bennett playing with Jagr was at his most productive but my impression was always that Jagr was by far the weakest player on the line. He just didn't do much (but Jankowski and Bennett were at their best at that time). Then, as you say, Hathaway stepped in and it continued for a while, but not forever.

I don't blame coaching at all for having Ferland on the top line and Tkachuk on the second. Those lines were working great and you don't often want to change what works just to experiment. I think to some degree it has to be on Bennett to force his way up. The fact that Ferland tailed off so badly might be the opening to do so.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Overall, I think Bennett makes plenty of plays 5v5 and criticisms of his play a la CliffFletcher's post earlier are overblown - for most of last season after the early slump, Bennett comfortably sat in the top five of the team's 5v5 producers per minute and only fell off in the final game when Jankowski edged past him with a four goal game, but that game itself was basically August hockey from a Vegas perspective. He struggles on the power play as of late, which suggest a lack of role. Often you would see him on the right circle waiting for a one timer only for Hamilton to elect to shoot the puck. Bennett didn't always suck on the PP, that happened after Gulutzan came. Granted, even under Hartley he lacked a role fitting his skillset, but I think that has more to do with the fact that ideally, Bennett's spot on a power play is as the bumper. I've observed his vision from that area as being very strong. Anyways I digress.

I think Bennett would thrive in a system that pushed the pace better (...good grief do I hope that's the type of system we use next year). Gulutzan's controlled 5 man breakout did not allow for a lot of speed through the neutral zone, which then resulted in the dump and chase/grind it out hockey that we saw...which then lead to the complete lack of offensive production team-wide.

I look at why Bennett struggled to produce offensively last year, and then I look at why the team struggled to produce offensively...and they line-up. Poor shot quality from bad angles and throw traffic. Why did we miss the net so much last year? Because players were trying shoot around defenders who were already in defensive position due to the lack of speed on our attack - I really hope we get to see the team play with pace this year, because damn if we don't have a good number of players who could really make use of it.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The funny part of it is, it's indisputable that Bennett playing with Jagr was at his most productive but my impression was always that Jagr was by far the weakest player on the line. He just didn't do much (but Jankowski and Bennett were at their best at that time).

What Jagr did, and could do, was hang on to the puck which in turn allowed Jankowski and Bennett to shine as they weren't just forechecking all game. He probably had the best controlled entry rate on the team after Gaudreau. And when Hathaway was first used on that line he too was brimming with AHL confidence and making controlled entries.

It really is that simple - Jankowski and Bennett are at their best when they are not dumping and chasing. And that's what Jagr brought to the table even if he wasn't individually doing a whole lot.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

He's had no significant time with Gaudreau or Monahan, and when he has, it's been inconsistent and he's been bounced around the line-up like crazy.

Consistency is important.

Sure, blame Bennett for not making a great impact immediately when plopped on a line...but then when he does get put on the line and instantly produces, he gets demoted the very next game because we picked up Chris friggin' Stewart off waivers.

I disagree, he squandered his opportunities. Plays die on his stick or he takes an offensive zone penalty. That's about as consistent we get with him.

And it's not like your examples started playing with their linemates. From Kelly, Soderberg, Spooner, Lucic, Eriksson, and then Marchand, Pastrnak proved himself on the fourth line, the third line, the second line and then got his opportunity on the first. Sometimes he dropped back down, as is the case for young developing players but he played himself back.

Draisaitl played with Yakupov his first year, moved up to play with Hall on the second line in his sophomore season and then got the opportunity with McDavid his third.

Bennett's trending backwards. He did play 20% of his time with Gaudreau in the previous season, this one he played less.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

I disagree, he squandered his opportunities. Plays die on his stick or he takes an offensive zone penalty. That's about as consistent we get with him.

And it's not like your examples started playing with their linemates. From Kelly, Soderberg, Spooner, Lucic, Eriksson, and then Marchand, Pastrnak proved himself on the fourth line, the third line, the second line and then got his opportunity on the first. Sometimes he dropped back down, as is the case for young developing players but he played himself back.

Draisaitl played with Yakupov his first year, moved up to play with Hall on the second line in his sophomore season and then got the opportunity with McDavid his third.

Bennett's trending backwards. He did play 20% of his time with Gaudreau in the previous season, this one he played less.

Pastrnak
14/15:
38.3 LUCIC,MILAN - PASTRNAK,DAVID - SPOONER,RYAN
21.1 KREJCI,DAVID - LUCIC,MILAN - PASTRNAK,DAVID
10.5 KELLY,CHRIS - PASTRNAK,DAVID - SODERBERG,CARL
6.7 BERGERON,PATRICE - MARCHAND,BRAD - PASTRNAK,DAVID
4.5 KREJCI,DAVID - MARCHAND,BRAD - PASTRNAK,DAVID
3 LUCIC,MILAN - PASTRNAK,DAVID - SODERBERG,CARL

15/16:
42.9 ERIKSSON,LOUI - KREJCI,DAVID - PASTRNAK,DAVID
28.2 BELESKEY,MATT - KREJCI,DAVID - PASTRNAK,DAVID
5.3 BERGERON,PATRICE - MARCHAND,BRAD - PASTRNAK,DAVID
4.3 BELESKEY,MATT - KEMPPAINEN,JOONAS - PASTRNAK,DAVID

16/17:
45.7 BERGERON,PATRICE - MARCHAND,BRAD - PASTRNAK,DAVID
9.8 KREJCI,DAVID - PASTRNAK,DAVID - STAFFORD,DREW
9.3 CEHLARIK,PETER - KREJCI,DAVID - PASTRNAK,DAVID
5.6 KREJCI,DAVID - PASTRNAK,DAVID - SCHALLER,TIM
5.1 BELESKEY,MATT - KREJCI,DAVID - PASTRNAK,DAVID

17/18:
45.7 BERGERON,PATRICE - MARCHAND,BRAD - PASTRNAK,DAVID
13.7 MARCHAND,BRAD - NASH,RILEY - PASTRNAK,DAVID
9.8 BERGERON,PATRICE - HEINEN,DANTON - PASTRNAK,DAVID


There's no one quite on the same level of bad as Troy Brouwer, and no time in Bennett's last 2 years has he had the consistency or talent level to play with. Pastrnak has been centered almost his entire career by Bergeron or Krejci.

Draisaitl
14/15:
15.1 DRAISAITL,LEON - EBERLE,JORDAN - YAKUPOV,NAIL
12 DRAISAITL,LEON - PERRON,DAVID - PURCELL,EDWARD
9.9 DRAISAITL,LEON - POULIOT,BENOIT - YAKUPOV,NAIL
6.9 DRAISAITL,LEON - PAKARINEN,IIRO - PURCELL,EDWARD
5.5 DRAISAITL,LEON - HALL,TAYLOR - PURCELL,EDWARD
5.2 DRAISAITL,LEON - PITLICK,TYLER - YAKUPOV,NAIL

15/16:
43.8 DRAISAITL,LEON - HALL,TAYLOR - PURCELL,TEDDY
9.1 DRAISAITL,LEON - HALL,TAYLOR - NUGENT-HOPKINS,RYAN
7.7 DRAISAITL,LEON - HALL,TAYLOR - KASSIAN,ZACK
4.6 DRAISAITL,LEON - EBERLE,JORDAN - HALL,TAYLOR
4.6 DRAISAITL,LEON - HALL,TAYLOR - PAKARINEN,IIRO
4.4 DRAISAITL,LEON - HALL,TAYLOR - YAKUPOV,NAIL

16/17:
44.1 DRAISAITL,LEON - MAROON,PATRICK - MCDAVID,CONNOR
6.1 DRAISAITL,LEON - LUCIC,MILAN - MCDAVID,CONNOR
5.6 DRAISAITL,LEON - MAROON,PATRICK - PULJUJARVI,JESSE
4.1 DRAISAITL,LEON - MAROON,PATRICK - NUGENT-HOPKINS,RYAN

17/18 (Lucic sucked this year):
25 DRAISAITL,LEON - MAROON,PATRICK - MCDAVID,CONNOR
9.1 DRAISAITL,LEON - LUCIC,MILAN - MCDAVID,CONNOR
8.8 DRAISAITL,LEON - KHAIRA,JUJHAR - STROME,RYAN
6.7 CAMMALLERI,MICHAEL - DRAISAITL,LEON - LUCIC,MILAN


Bennett
15/16 (Hudler sucked this year):
26.8 BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - FROLIK,MICHAEL
6.0 BENNETT,SAM - GRANLUND,MARKUS - HUDLER,JIRI
5.4 BENNETT,SAM - FERLAND,MICHEAL - JOORIS,JOSH
4.1 BENNETT,SAM - GRANLUND,MARKUS - RAYMOND,MASON
4.1 BENNETT,SAM - COLBORNE,JOE - FERLAND,MICHEAL

16/17:
20.8 BENNETT,SAM - BROUWER,TROY - VERSTEEG,KRIS
13.5 BENNETT,SAM - CHIASSON,ALEX - GAUDREAU,JOHNNY
11.3 BENNETT,SAM - CHIASSON,ALEX - VERSTEEG,KRIS
6.8 BENNETT,SAM - CHIASSON,ALEX - STAJAN,MATTHEW
5.4 BENNETT,SAM - BROUWER,TROY - MONAHAN,SEAN
5.3 BENNETT,SAM - FERLAND,MICHEAL - VERSTEEG,KRIS

17/18:
28.7 BENNETT,SAM - HATHAWAY,GARNET - JANKOWSKI,MARK
10.1 BENNETT,SAM - JAGR,JAROMIR - JANKOWSKI,MARK
7.6 BENNETT,SAM - GAUDREAU,JOHNNY - MONAHAN,SEAN
5.5 BENNETT,SAM - BROUWER,TROY - JANKOWSKI,MARK
5.2 BENNETT,SAM - JANKOWSKI,MARK - LAZAR,CURTIS


...purple was probably not the best colour to highlight (*updated to red*), but I used it to highlight what I arbitrarily call "crappy 5v5 hockey players". If you're comparing circumstances they're not even close to each other. Sam Bennett, under Glen Gulutzan and thanks to poor organizational depth was absolutely set up to fail. There was very rarely a time when Bennett, who is incredibly young and still developing, didn't get lined up with an absolute dud, if not two of them.

Bennett "trending down" was almost entirely due to Gulutzan and the way he handled him as a centre, and the incredibly poor linemates he's consistently had to deal with. It's a bummer he can't carry them, but no other team around the league asks their young players to carry crappy teammates the way Gully asked Bennett to during the 16/17 season, and then again the way he asked Bennett and rookie centre Jankowski to carry awful RW'ers. Under Gully, this "trending down" period, it's also worth noting he's always played with a rookie centre - either himself, or Jankowski, on his line.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Go on hfboards and see what the opinion of Bennett is. Fans are offering 3-4th round picks and prospects you have never heard of. It makes zero sense that the Flames sell him that low. Even for a first in the 20’s that makes little sense since thst player will be years away and likely will bust like most of the Flames first rounders picked in the 20’s.

It makes sense to keep him for another year and hope that a 22 year old player has room to grow.

I can envision a deal where the Flames trade Brodie and Bennett formsomething and both players go back to their ore Gulutzan expectations and the Flames look foolish.

While I am not disagreeing with you, using HFboards as a measuring stick for anything resembling common sense and not pure idiocy is a fail. I call that place Hockey Morons.

[Drunk Uncle]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It's as though people are watching a different player. The Bennett I see routinely kills plays on his stick. He still tries to beat guys 1 on 1 and fails. Multiple times a game. He doesn't use his skating to give himself space and time to let plays develop. He doesn't use his teammates well. He's still trying to do the things that worked for him as a 17 and 18 year old.

That doesn't look like a lack of confidence - you have to be pretty confident to think you can beat a NHL defender 1 on 1. It looks like a guy who doesn't see the ice well, and doesn't cycle through his options well. Who struggles to process the game at an NHL level.

Great post. A lot of what you said can be summed up as "he still has a lot of Junior habits in him". He didn't play a pro style game in junior. However, when he has played a simple pro-style gritty game like we saw in the playoffs, he was very effective. I think it will be possible to harness playoff Bennett and beat away Junior Bennett as he matures and gets stronger. His weaknesses as you listed will likely improve but not go away entirely and will likely prevent him from being elite. I still think he will be a useful player once he matures though.

[Monahan For Mayor]

Apparently Coyotes have offered OEL a 8x8 extension.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

While I am not disagreeing with you, using HFboards as a measuring stick for anything resembling common sense and not pure idiocy is a fail. I call that place Hockey Morons.

I agree with you thst place is ridiculous but so is this place. I think because thst forum has fans from every team you get a better variety of opinions (even though many are idiotic).

What is happening with Bennett is not that different than any former high pick. A team thinks they can get him on the cheap and that he reaches his potential in a new market.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Monahan For Mayor

Apparently Coyotes have offered OEL a 8x8 extension.

I feel like OEL could get more than that (although not much more), so it'll be interesting to see where that final $ value ends up being.

[Monahan For Mayor]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I feel like OEL could get more than that (although not much more), so it'll be interesting to see where that final $ value ends up being.

Maybe but the cost of living in Phoenix is incredibly cheap.

[Toonage]

But how expensive is it in Houston?

[Mass_nerder]

I guess offers from other teams would have to be enough to cover the difference in salary for 7 to 8 years. So there needs to be some way to recoup 8 million over the max ufa contact length.

[Barca]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I agree with you thst place is ridiculous but so is this place. I think because thst forum has fans from every team you get a better variety of opinions (even though many are idiotic).

What is happening with Bennett is not that different than any former high pick. A team thinks they can get him on the cheap and that he reaches his potential in a new market.

I agree, Bennett is seen as a project type player around the league now.

he has regressed since his rookie year and I don't think it's coaching.

low hockey iq for a guy who was drafted to be a top 6 scorer.

or maybe he's just a 3rd liner that's a 30 point a year guy?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Toonage

But how expensive is it in Houston?

Also cheap

[Torch]

A Krisp twenty says Bennett gets 50 points this year! Glue Gun couldn't coach finger painting to five year olds.

[Monahan For Mayor]

Originally Posted by Torch

A Krisp twenty says Bennett get 50 points this year! Glue Gun couldn't coach finger painting to five year olds.

I'll take that bet.