How’s Honzek doing these days?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I think it is possible for a group to get too focused on an individual player - Jankowski comes to mind - but that is probably very rare. For the most part, conviction is what you want.

By most accounts wasn't that less of a "group" issue and more that Weisbrod was given too much influence on that particular draft? I believe it was reported that his influence on the draft was reduced after that draft and he was marginalized to the point where Burke didn't even know what he did at the end.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I've got nothing from behind the scenes on the Jankowski pick but there was so much ink on Weisbrod seeing him, snow storm, dominant, next Nieuwendyk ....

That I wonder if there should be a distinction between

a) laser focuses scouting group with an agreed upon list
b) hockey exec with one viewing obsessing over a player

That's the right word: obsessing. A rare problem, but a problem. And yes, an individual problem.

Much different from a scouting staff doing their work and knowing who they want, though.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I've got nothing from behind the scenes on the Jankowski pick but there was so much ink on Weisbrod seeing him, snow storm, dominant, next Nieuwendyk ....

That I wonder if there should be a distinction between

a) laser focuses scouting group with an agreed upon list
b) hockey exec with one viewing obsessing over a player

I remember quite a lot of the background on the Jankowski pick, actually. I want to preface this by saying that I was actually quite relieved when Burke fired Weisbrod, and I want to be clear on that because this next part will come off as very "Pro" Weisbrod.


That Blizzard story was the first time (IIRC) that anyone on the Flames saw Jankowski. Weisbrod loved him right away, and thought of him as the next Niuwendyk. You remember that part of the story accurately.


The next part is where i find it interesting and where I seem to be pro-Weisbrod. He had every Calgary Flames North American scout view Jankowski at least once, though I believe most did it more than once. Story goes that everyone really liked Jankowski. They also scouted the stands (and I imagine most teams probably do this as well) to see what other teams were really interested in Jankowski. That's why they were comfortable dropping down to where they eventually picked him. I actually liked this about Weisbrod - not only for Jankowski, but apparently he made the area scouts gets eyes into one another's areas and get second opinions. Seemed like a shrewd thing to do that made me wonder why they weren't doing it already in the first place.


To add a bit more to this story, the post draft stuff that you probably know already, but I might as well add:


1) Weisbrod publicly proclaiming him as the next Nieuwendyk
2) Feaster proclaiming him as the best player in the draft, but also weirdly giving FULL credit to Weisbrod, and almost insisting it was 'HIS' pick, rather than "our" pick.
3) Button talking about Jankowski and being much more conservative with his thoughts, specifically saying that 'we all saw him and like him, but he is really raw".


One more tidbit was Button talking about scouting a player in a situation where he is playing in a much lower league. He says it is more difficult accurately scouting a player in that situation, and it takes a lot of experience to get a proper book on a player in that circumstance, and that only very experienced scouting staffs are able to do it.



I think the weirdest thing about it all was how he was tracking so well in his first pro season in the AHL, followed by his first NHL rookie season where he goes on to score 17 really skilled goals (no lucky goals is what I mean - they were all "goal scorers' goals"). Then he gets 14 the next season, but this time a handful of lucky ones (including his first of the season which IIRC was a Jagr shot that hit him in the back before going in), but he had 10 more assists than his previous season. He is no longer a regular NHL'er.


However, he is killing it in the AHL - he is 3rd in the AHL (in both points and points per game) behind only Stankoven and Bourque (the kids from the Dallas organization). He recently got recalled by Nashville, and has played 6 games and generated 1 goal. I still hope he finds his way as an NHL'er, but I just don't know why he looked legitimately good in his rookie season, but then things went south.

[PeteMoss]

Jankowski was a reasonable pick. He's played 328 games in the NHL and was the 21st overall pick in a draft that looking back was about 15 guys deep in terms of guys who make a difference. Obviously you'd prefer better but he's probably average or just below average guy for a 21st overall pick.

[Heavy Jack]

If you sort by points he’s 48th with 93 points, currently 1 point ahead of Kulak a D that we drafted in the 4th round that year. It’s a woof of a pick, Tom Wilson would have looked awesome patrolling Gaudreau and Monahan like Ferland did but it is what it is.

[jeffman]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

By most accounts wasn't that less of a "group" issue and more that Weisbrod was given too much influence on that particular draft? I believe it was reported that his influence on the draft was reduced after that draft and he was marginalized to the point where Burke didn't even know what he did at the end.

That management group loved their owski’s mark jankowski Ben hanowski Matt bartowski and so on

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I remember quite a lot of the background on the Jankowski pick, actually. I want to preface this by saying that I was actually quite relieved when Burke fired Weisbrod, and I want to be clear on that because this next part will come off as very "Pro" Weisbrod.


That Blizzard story was the first time (IIRC) that anyone on the Flames saw Jankowski. Weisbrod loved him right away, and thought of him as the next Niuwendyk. You remember that part of the story accurately.


The next part is where i find it interesting and where I seem to be pro-Weisbrod. He had every Calgary Flames North American scout view Jankowski at least once, though I believe most did it more than once. Story goes that everyone really liked Jankowski. They also scouted the stands (and I imagine most teams probably do this as well) to see what other teams were really interested in Jankowski. That's why they were comfortable dropping down to where they eventually picked him. I actually liked this about Weisbrod - not only for Jankowski, but apparently he made the area scouts gets eyes into one another's areas and get second opinions. Seemed like a shrewd thing to do that made me wonder why they weren't doing it already in the first place.


To add a bit more to this story, the post draft stuff that you probably know already, but I might as well add:


1) Weisbrod publicly proclaiming him as the next Nieuwendyk
2) Feaster proclaiming him as the best player in the draft, but also weirdly giving FULL credit to Weisbrod, and almost insisting it was 'HIS' pick, rather than "our" pick.
3) Button talking about Jankowski and being much more conservative with his thoughts, specifically saying that 'we all saw him and like him, but he is really raw".


One more tidbit was Button talking about scouting a player in a situation where he is playing in a much lower league. He says it is more difficult accurately scouting a player in that situation, and it takes a lot of experience to get a proper book on a player in that circumstance, and that only very experienced scouting staffs are able to do it.



I think the weirdest thing about it all was how he was tracking so well in his first pro season in the AHL, followed by his first NHL rookie season where he goes on to score 17 really skilled goals (no lucky goals is what I mean - they were all "goal scorers' goals"). Then he gets 14 the next season, but this time a handful of lucky ones (including his first of the season which IIRC was a Jagr shot that hit him in the back before going in), but he had 10 more assists than his previous season. He is no longer a regular NHL'er.


However, he is killing it in the AHL - he is 3rd in the AHL (in both points and points per game) behind only Stankoven and Bourque (the kids from the Dallas organization). He recently got recalled by Nashville, and has played 6 games and generated 1 goal. I still hope he finds his way as an NHL'er, but I just don't know why he looked legitimately good in his rookie season, but then things went south.

Like Colbourne, IMO it comes down to consistency of intensity and effort on the ice.

I thought Janko was going to beat our negative expectations and turn into a 2nd line centre, and IMO his first two NHL seasons were better than Backlund's as a comparable. The frustration was exponentially augmented by the whole draft situation and scenario. Very strange player.

[Roof-Daddy]

Haven't watched Honzek play much, but as everyone can see his production is pretty terrible for D+1 season. Worst part is his team is on an absolute tear lately and their doing it with minimal offensive contribution from him.

Hopefully just a blip and he turns it around, but certainly not a great sign.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Jankowski was a reasonable pick. He's played 328 games in the NHL and was the 21st overall pick in a draft that looking back was about 15 guys deep in terms of guys who make a difference. Obviously you'd prefer better but he's probably average or just below average guy for a 21st overall pick.

I don't think he was a reasonable pick. I remember some fans hoping they would pick TT, only to have them trade down and pick Jankowski and the shock of the panel. Was bad and still is.

[dammage79]

Only thing I'm worried about with Honzek is his ability to stay healthy and not lose massive chunks of time every injury. I'm sure he'd be up near 2ppg if healthy all year.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

I don't think he was a reasonable pick. I remember some fans hoping they would pick TT, only to have them trade down and pick Jankowski and the shock of the panel. Was bad and still is.

The premise for the pick was fine.
Fast, big, skilled centres are hard to find.

[Sandman]

I had my eye on some other players for our pick, but I really like Honzek. Ok, I’m going to say something controversial, so forgive me:

I’m really very happy with the fact that management and scouts have come to the realization that we need to get much bigger as an organization, and they have started picking good players with size in the last couple of drafts. Our prospect pool was starting to look like Fraggle Rock under Treliving - especially after the Pelletier and Coronato picks. I hope this line of thinking continues- I’m not saying pick only big guys, as you have to go BPA, but size comes into play in the playoffs when games have less room.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Sandman

I had my eye on some other players for our pick, but I really like Honzek. Ok, I’m going to say something controversial, so forgive me:

I’m really very happy with the fact that management and scouts have come to the realization that we need to get much bigger as an organization, and they have started picking good players with size in the last couple of drafts. Our prospect pool was starting to look like Fraggle Rock under Treliving - especially after the Pelletier and Coronato picks. I hope this line of thinking continues- I’m not saying pick only big guys, as you have to go BPA, but size comes into play in the playoffs when games have less room.

Agreed!!!!

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Sandman

I had my eye on some other players for our pick, but I really like Honzek. Ok, I’m going to say something controversial, so forgive me:

I’m really very happy with the fact that management and scouts have come to the realization that we need to get much bigger as an organization, and they have started picking good players with size in the last couple of drafts. Our prospect pool was starting to look like Fraggle Rock under Treliving - especially after the Pelletier and Coronato picks. I hope this line of thinking continues- I’m not saying pick only big guys, as you have to go BPA, but size comes into play in the playoffs when games have less room.

I’m actually a little worried they are veering too much into big = good. We will see what the next draft looks like but skill > size. I also have PTSD from the poor drafting before Tre took over though

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Sandman

I had my eye on some other players for our pick, but I really like Honzek. Ok, I’m going to say something controversial, so forgive me:

I’m really very happy with the fact that management and scouts have come to the realization that we need to get much bigger as an organization, and they have started picking good players with size in the last couple of drafts. Our prospect pool was starting to look like Fraggle Rock under Treliving - especially after the Pelletier and Coronato picks. I hope this line of thinking continues- I’m not saying pick only big guys, as you have to go BPA, but size comes into play in the playoffs when games have less room.

Big and fast.

Big and fast.

[Sandman]

Originally Posted by Bonded

I’m actually a little worried they are veering too much into big = good. We will see what the next draft looks like but skill > size. I also have PTSD from the poor drafting before Tre took over though

Oh yeah, we can’t go back to drafting players just because they’re big and tough- they have to be able to skate, and they have to have skill. Honzek, Bell, and Suniev come to mind. I know Stromgren wasn’t a popular pick, but he had first-round consideration at times in his draft year. Ronni was actually a good pick too, if it wasn’t for his legal troubles.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The premise for the pick was fine.
Fast, big, skilled centres are hard to find.

Sure, the premise was fine. But it was too big of a reach for where the Flames picked

[Canada 02]

Button's top 50 NHL affiliated prospects.

Honzek is not on his list, but three players drafted after Honzek are, including the 6th, 7th and 8th best.

https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/cutter-gauthi...list-1.2079455

edit, actually, there are 7 players drafted after Honzek on the list. Barlow, Cowan, Heidt and Brindley as well as ASP, Ritchie and Perreault

[traptor]

Honzek was a bit of a stretch pick and there were like 10 players I would of easily took before him. He's definitely having a mediocre D+1 year.

He was always going to be a long term project though. They obviously saw alot of tools they liked and thought they could mold.

It's strange they would draft a LHS guy projecting as a LW though. By far lowest need in the organization.

Honzek rankings:
NHL Central Scouting: 9th (amongst NA skaters)
The Hockey Writers (Horn): 19th
The Hockey Writers (Baracchini): 35th
FC Hockey: 42nd
TSN/McKenzie: 19th
Elite Prospects: 22nd
TSN/Craig Button: 22nd
Dobber Prospects: 32nd
Sportsnet: 13th


Patience will be needed with this one. He's probably not going to hit his stride and be an impactful NHL player until he's in his mid 20s.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I don't think he was a stretch there at all. People overindex on looking at lists and seeing those as being some sort of gospel, but we see the NHL draft always is quite different (except for Bob's list, b/c his list is one where he actually talks to NHL scouts. Honzek was 17 on his list, more reflective of reality).
Honzek hasn't had a great year, but Ritchie is actually a good example of how injuries de-rail a player. He fell last year because of his poor production, as he struggled with a shoulder injury. He's healthy now and his offense is popping. Which is one of the reasons why I would have been fine with the Flames taking him last year, which would have similarly been called a "reach" by many.

Generally what I see in the NHL draft v. Non-Bob lists are:
- D goes higher
- Centres go higher
- Players with size go higher
- Undersized players go lower
- Offensive flawed wingers go lower

One can question if that is due to irrational biases in the NHL or not, but I think it's a constant flaw in the various mocks and lists that are assembled, that ignore the NHL trends.