Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 07-17-2019, 01:56 PM   #41
OutOfTheCube
Franchise Player
 
OutOfTheCube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Exp:
Default

I see you've met my toddlers.






This joke just keeps working
__________________
OutOfTheCube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2019, 02:07 PM   #42
Resolute 14
One of many who is too boring; thinks that there should be rules regarding grammar in custom user titles, and also makes moderators wonder if there is a charachter limit here. I mean come on- you would think that would be a limitation in the software
 
Resolute 14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makarov View Post
Sorry, I honestly don't understand what you are saying here. How does anything I argued support your position that raw totals of waste production (at the national level) is more useful than per capita data?
Changing where you place the line on a map doesn't change how much waste is created. As you argued, we don't become more efficient in Alberta if we cast off the rest of Canada. The total waste in the region that makes up the former undivided nation of Canada would be unchanged. As would global totals.

Quote:
Didn't mean to make a strawman argument. I just presumed that we were discussing this data in the context of a mutually recognized problem of "human beings produce an unsustainable amount of waste". But not everyone may agree with that premise. Fair enough.



This, to me, is a gross oversimplification of the problem and the issues. Although waste is an environmental problem, solutions are not solely environmental. There are obvious financial, economic, and human costs to almost every attempt to reduce waste production. The distribution of how those costs are borne (and by who) clearly engages issues of fairness and justice (in my opinion.) Even just on a practical level, if proposed solutions don't seem fair, they won't get any traction.
Yup. And that circles us right back to the per capita problem: we use it disingenuously to give the appearance that fully developed economies are virtually the entire problem while developing economies with high populations are not. So while waste creation in India and China grows and grows, we here in Canada (and even, more ridiculously, places like Finland) get to be demonized despite creating a tiny fraction of same.
__________________


Last edited by Resolute 14; 07-17-2019 at 02:14 PM.
Resolute 14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2019, 02:45 PM   #43
Makarov
#1 Goaltender
 
Makarov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Moscow
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Resolute 14 View Post
Changing where you place the line on a map doesn't change how much waste is created. As you argued, we don't become more efficient in Alberta if we cast off the rest of Canada. The total waste in the region that makes up the former undivided nation of Canada would be unchanged. As would global totals.
Right. So how does this support your position that state-level raw totals are more useful than per capita data? In this hypothetical scenario, the per capita data more accurately reflects the situation on the ground (ie, the per capita waste creation of Albertans would remain relatively unchanged whereas the state-level raw total produced by "Alberta" would be significantly less than the state-level raw total produced by the former "Canada").

Quote:
Originally Posted by Resolute 14 View Post
Yup. And that circles us right back to the per capita problem: we use it disingenuously to give the appearance that fully developed economies are virtually the entire problem while developing economies with high populations are not. So while waste creation in India and China grows and grows, we here in Canada (and even, more ridiculously, places like Finland) get to be demonized despite creating a tiny fraction of same.
No, I totally disagree with your characterization "disingenuously to give the appearance that fully developed economies are virtually the entire problem while developing economies with high populations are not." We use per capita data to reflect the fact that people living in states with fully developed economies are indeed the biggest problem. I think that is true. And yes, waste creation in India and China will continue to grow as standards of living continue to rise closer to the standards of living in those states with fully developed economies (again, the two are directly related).

This is precisely why the states with fully developed economies are the ones which need to show leadership on this issue.
__________________
"Life of Russian hockey veterans is very hard," said Soviet hockey star Sergei Makarov. "Most of them don't have enough to eat these days. These old players are Russian legends."
Makarov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2019, 02:56 PM   #44
PepsiFree
Participant
Participant
 
PepsiFree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Exp:
Default

The logic behind thinking places like China should be doing way more than us considering the size difference seems to be similar to the logic that suggests people who make more money should be contributing at a way higher tax rate than the rest of us.

Somewhat linked to that, in the world bank report is shows that higher income people contribute much more than lower income people to municipal waste, so higher income people should have heavier burdens placed upon them to reduce municipal waste. Right?
PepsiFree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2019, 03:55 PM   #45
MelBridgeman
Franchise Player
 
MelBridgeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

The headline "Canada produces the most waste in the world" is wrong, misleading and fake news, Canada does not produce the most waste in the world. It's click bait pure and simple and the usual suspects fall hard for it.

That still doesn't mean we can't reduce, reuse and recycle.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie Telford The chief of staff to the prime minister of Canada
“Line up all kinds of people to write op-eds.”
MelBridgeman is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MelBridgeman For This Useful Post:
Old 07-18-2019, 12:12 AM   #46
powderjunkie
First Line Centre
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Resolute 14 View Post
Yup. And that circles us right back to the per capita problem: we use it disingenuously to give the appearance that fully developed economies are virtually the entire problem while developing economies with high populations are not. So while waste creation in India and China grows and grows, we here in Canada (and even, more ridiculously, places like Finland) get to be demonized despite creating a tiny fraction of same.
The real question is how much of China's waste should actually be attributed to it's export markets? Of course the rationale could apply to every other country, but it's almost certainly most impactful to China's numbers.

We have the same issue all the time with O&G. Personally, I think the demand side (ie. consumer) should bear more responsibility in all of this than the supply side. Demand begets supply, but supply does not beget demand.
powderjunkie is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to powderjunkie For This Useful Post:
Old 07-18-2019, 05:50 PM   #47
gasman
Crash and Bang Winger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MelBridgeman View Post
The headline "Canada produces the most waste in the world" is wrong, misleading and fake news, Canada does not produce the most waste in the world. It's click bait pure and simple and the usual suspects fall hard for it.

That still doesn't mean we can't reduce, reuse and recycle.
This
gasman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2019, 08:13 AM   #48
Resolute 14
One of many who is too boring; thinks that there should be rules regarding grammar in custom user titles, and also makes moderators wonder if there is a charachter limit here. I mean come on- you would think that would be a limitation in the software
 
Resolute 14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makarov View Post
Right. So how does this support your position that state-level raw totals are more useful than per capita data?
That's not my position, even if you chose to assign it to me yourself.

My position, as I have now stated multiple times and which you, as you always do, simply choose not to read because it doesn't jive with what you want reality to be, is that environmental issues like this are not a problem artificially contained within borders.

Quote:
In this hypothetical scenario, the per capita data more accurately reflects the situation on the ground (ie, the per capita waste creation of Albertans would remain relatively unchanged whereas the state-level raw total produced by "Alberta" would be significantly less than the state-level raw total produced by the former "Canada").
You're just re-stating your argument, and I don't see much need to re-state my rebuttal beyond telling you go read my previous posts.

However, seriously, what is your argument here? That a smaller geographical area creates less total waste than a larger one? Well, duh. Your argument, however, neither supports your position nor counters mine. Whether or not Canada is a single country or completely fractures into multiple parts, the actual amount of waste created in each (and the per-capita amount too, for that matter) would be completely unchanged. Alberta creates the same amount of waste as a province of Canada that it would as an independent country. Ten provinces, each as independent jurisdictions create the same amount of waste collectively as Canada would as a whole.

That's the damn point: lines on a map don't change the actual amount of waste being generated.

Quote:
No, I totally disagree with your characterization "disingenuously to give the appearance that fully developed economies are virtually the entire problem while developing economies with high populations are not." We use per capita data to reflect the fact that people living in states with fully developed economies are indeed the biggest problem. I think that is true. And yes, waste creation in India and China will continue to grow as standards of living continue to rise closer to the standards of living in those states with fully developed economies (again, the two are directly related).

This is precisely why the states with fully developed economies are the ones which need to show leadership on this issue.
And if that is your belief, then you don't actually give a crap about the environment. Your issue is wealth inequality/wealth redistribution. And that's fine. It's a worthy issue to be concerned about. Just don't use the environment as your coatrack.
__________________

Resolute 14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2019, 11:26 AM   #49
Makarov
#1 Goaltender
 
Makarov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Moscow
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Resolute 14 View Post
That's not my position, even if you chose to assign it to me yourself.

My position, as I have now stated multiple times and which you, as you always do, simply choose not to read because it doesn't jive with what you want reality to be, is that environmental issues like this are not a problem artificially contained within borders.
Well, okay, I don't really know what that means in the context of the current discussion? Are per-capita measurements of waste or pollution production useful? If not, how would you propose that we measure (so that we can hopefully address the issue of over-production)? I guess I just really don't understand what you are advocating for?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Resolute 14 View Post
However, seriously, what is your argument here? That a smaller geographical area creates less total waste than a larger one? Well, duh. Your argument, however, neither supports your position nor counters mine. Whether or not Canada is a single country or completely fractures into multiple parts, the actual amount of waste created in each (and the per-capita amount too, for that matter) would be completely unchanged. Alberta creates the same amount of waste as a province of Canada that it would as an independent country. Ten provinces, each as independent jurisdictions create the same amount of waste collectively as Canada would as a whole.

That's the damn point: lines on a map don't change the actual amount of waste being generated.
Pardon me? I am definitely NOT arguing that "a smaller geographical area creates less total waste than a larger one". That is an absurd statement (I'm amazed that you think it is something that is obviously true ["Well, duh"]). Land does not generate waste. People do. This is why, for example, the island of Manhattan produces millions of times more waste than the entire Yukon and Northwest Territories of Canada.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Resolute 14 View Post
And if that is your belief, then you don't actually give a crap about the environment. Your issue is wealth inequality/wealth redistribution. And that's fine. It's a worthy issue to be concerned about. Just don't use the environment as your coatrack.
As I previously posted, if a proposed international solution to over production of waste (or pollution) is to succeed, it will have to be regarded as fair and just (or else other states will not sign on).
__________________
"Life of Russian hockey veterans is very hard," said Soviet hockey star Sergei Makarov. "Most of them don't have enough to eat these days. These old players are Russian legends."
Makarov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2019, 04:11 PM   #50
Resolute 14
One of many who is too boring; thinks that there should be rules regarding grammar in custom user titles, and also makes moderators wonder if there is a charachter limit here. I mean come on- you would think that would be a limitation in the software
 
Resolute 14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makarov View Post
Well, okay, I don't really know what that means in the context of the current discussion? Are per-capita measurements of waste or pollution production useful? If not, how would you propose that we measure (so that we can hopefully address the issue of over-production)? I guess I just really don't understand what you are advocating for?
My point is this: If this is an environmental discussion, then per capita is meaningless. We have one environment, not one environment for every country. It's the global creation that is at issue.

Quote:
Pardon me? I am definitely NOT arguing that "a smaller geographical area creates less total waste than a larger one". That is an absurd statement (I'm amazed that you think it is something that is obviously true ["Well, duh"]). Land does not generate waste. People do. This is why, for example, the island of Manhattan produces millions of times more waste than the entire Yukon and Northwest Territories of Canada.
You are one trying to draw lines between the waste creation of a separate Alberta vs. the entirety of Canada as if that is significant. So tell me, do you or do you not think less total waste is generated within Alberta's borders vs. that of Canada as a whole?

I like your new argument though. Higher population areas produce more waste than lower population areas. Cool. You use Manhattan vs. Yukon as an example. I'll actually agree here and use China vs. Canada.

Actually, better yet, lets use Canada vs. the United States since both are in this story, so have apples to apples measurements. If Canada reduced it's per-capita waste creation by 20%, but the US reduced its by 5%, which is doing more for the environment?

The answer is: the US. By far.

Quote:
As I previously posted, if a proposed international solution to over production of waste (or pollution) is to succeed, it will have to be regarded as fair and just (or else other states will not sign on).
Yes, fair economically. Which is my other point: this isn't an environmental debate. It's an economic one wrapped in the veneer of environmental legitimacy.
__________________

Resolute 14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2019, 12:41 AM   #51
flamesforcup
Powerplay Quarterback
 
flamesforcup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke View Post
Hahaha!

"CANADA PRODUCES THE MOST WASTE IN THE WORLD*!!!!!!!"













*per capita
Not sure why thats funny when per capita is literally the best metric to compare countries. I dont understand why people are being so ridiculous in this thread of course they are going to compare by population it would be dumb not too. According to people here its ok to say India is a richer country than Canada because their gdp is higher (without accounting for per capita).

With the amount of materialism and wasteful consumerism in the west this is no surprise.
flamesforcup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2019, 09:17 AM   #52
CorsiHockeyLeague
Franchise Player
 
CorsiHockeyLeague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Exp:
Default

The point is that it's not the best metric, unless you're too stupid to look at a problem from anything but a 30,000 foot view. You actually need to adjust for a large number of factors (types of waste, what happens to the waste, what sorts of activities are producing the waste and whether there is even any other way to reasonably do those activities that would produce less waste, etc ad infinitum).

Both per capita and gross are superficial and not terribly useful metrics in terms of figuring out an effective path forward for waste reduction - or more accurately, what would no doubt be thousands of effective paths forward in different regions and industries, specific to context.

In any case, he was just mocking the thread title, which is, on its face, a lie.
__________________
"The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
CorsiHockeyLeague is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:01 AM.

Calgary Flames
2017-18




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2016