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Old 05-08-2021, 07:56 PM   #11901
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Interesting tidbit in an Portzline article from the Athletic today about the possibility of JD returning to Columbus, Jarmo has stated the BJís are looking to retool, not rebuild. With three 1stís sounds like theyíre prepared to move one, or more, of them. This isnít necessarily surprising, but I wonder what a trade might look like between the Flames and Jackets.

JG for Bjorkstrand and the 2nd of the Jackets three firsts?
Bjorkstran was on pace for 35G 60P last season, and isn't far off this year (more pts, fewer goals).

He's pretty darn close to Konecny in terms of overall value, right down to AAVs (OB has one extra year). OB is 2 yrs older, scores more goals, fewer pts.

I don't think CBJ does that trade straight up, let alone add.

The NTC really hurts...some "now or never" teams like CBJ, DAL, BUF, SJ, PIT, NAS etc. might have been more interested if their escape hatch (recover assets at TDL) wasn't so limited.
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Old 05-08-2021, 08:04 PM   #11902
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Well, I think the shoe was on the other foot. I donít think the timing was Trelivingís choice, I think it was Sutterís choice. he came back when he was ready. The Flames reportedly has been talking with him since as far back as Peters left the organization. The 3-4 week period after the 2020 season when the Flames had not announced who the coach was going to be also speaks to this, they wanted Sutter then. He definitely had kept a close eye on the team, I would bet. It was a slow burn and I bet he thought carefully about it. The timing and reasons were/are his decisions.
So why does Sutter decide to come this year out of all the years? And as you say, in a season that was likely a lost cause. This was the worst position the Flames have been in over the last 7 years. His decision making, his behavior and everything that he has said leads me to believe that he came in here expecting to save the season, not just to see what he has to work with next year. Heck, heís ridden Jacob Markstrom like heís trying to win every game. He has scratched and benched a lot of young players like heís trying to get the best line up in every night rather than investing into the future.
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Old 05-08-2021, 08:32 PM   #11903
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So why does Sutter decide to come this year out of all the years? And as you say, in a season that was likely a lost cause. This was the worst position the Flames have been in over the last 7 years. His decision making, his behavior and everything that he has said leads me to believe that he came in here expecting to save the season, not just to see what he has to work with next year. Heck, he’s ridden Jacob Markstrom like he’s trying to win every game. He has scratched and benched a lot of young players like he’s trying to get the best line up in every night rather than investing into the future.
Well, I don’t know and none of us do.

But, I tend to think Sutter sees something here. He probably spoke at length with Treliving, and ownership, about what the plan was. Surely, missing the playoffs this year was seriously discussed. He’s no dummy, he saw what was going on here and has been going on. I would imagine the Flames were forthright with what their concerns were and what the plan is. It wasn’t about salvaging this year. Maybe if he was 15-20 years younger he would have taken the chance just to get behind an NHL bench, but I have a real hard time believing he came out of retirement for this.

Just to add to this, I definitely think the way he has conducted himself publicly has everything to do with setting the table for next year. Losing is not acceptable. Period. I think the Flames management, Sutter included, sees that this team has drastically underperformed.

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Old 05-08-2021, 09:21 PM   #11904
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Well, I donít know and none of us do.

But, I tend to think Sutter sees something here. He probably spoke at length with Treliving, and ownership, about what the plan was. Surely, missing the playoffs this year was seriously discussed. Heís no dummy, he saw what was going on here and has been going on. I would imagine the Flames were forthright with what their concerns were and what the plan is. It wasnít about salvaging this year. Maybe if he was 15-20 years younger he would have taken the chance just to get behind an NHL bench, but I have a real hard time believing he came out of retirement for this.
Except that things could look incredibly different next season especially with an expansion draft and some soon to be expiring contracts. If he saw something in this team this year, then he must have had belief in this yearís team, because thereís no guarantee a Gaudreau or Monahan or Giordano or a Tkachuk would still be here next season. I think Darryl, like everybody else who saw this team on paper, thought gee, this team seems to have everything top to bottom, they just need to start playing with some more urgency and accountability and theyíll be fine. Then when he got here, he quickly realized that itís all just smoke and mirrors and itís not a very good team at all.



Here are some quotes from Sutter the day he was hired:

"I think that this team has as good an opportunity as anybody to make the playoffs and do well in the playoffsĒ

"In order to be a playoff team, you need to play playoff hockey every night. ď

"We're going to get this straightened out and get the most out of everybody."


https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5939621


Now hereís a quote from Treliving:

"Your job as a manager is to take your cues from the team," Treliving said. "I knew we needed to make a change, and there was only one guy we needed to have...This team needs Darryl and what he can bring."

Sounds like Sutter and especially Treliving wanted to make this move specifically to fix ďthis teamĒ aka 2020-21 Flames.
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Old 05-08-2021, 09:43 PM   #11905
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Except that things could look incredibly different next season especially with an expansion draft and some soon to be expiring contracts. If he saw something in this team this year, then he must have had belief in this year’s team, because there’s no guarantee a Gaudreau or Monahan or Giordano or a Tkachuk would still be here next season. I think Darryl, like everybody else who saw this team on paper, thought gee, this team seems to have everything top to bottom, they just need to start playing with some more urgency and accountability and they’ll be fine. Then when he got here, he quickly realized that it’s all just smoke and mirrors and it’s not a very good team at all.



Here are some quotes from Sutter the day he was hired:

"I think that this team has as good an opportunity as anybody to make the playoffs and do well in the playoffs”

"In order to be a playoff team, you need to play playoff hockey every night. “

"We're going to get this straightened out and get the most out of everybody."


https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5939621


Now here’s a quote from Treliving:

"Your job as a manager is to take your cues from the team," Treliving said. "I knew we needed to make a change, and there was only one guy we needed to have...This team needs Darryl and what he can bring."

Sounds like Sutter and especially Treliving wanted to make this move specifically to fix “this team” aka 2020-21 Flames.
I’m reasonably sure Sutter was also aware of the expansion draft, or at least considered it.

When I suggested he saw something here it had to do, more so, with the next 2-3 years, not just the next 6 months. I think he sees a core of Lindholm, Tkachuk, Mangiapane, Dube, Backlund, Gio, Tanev, Hanifin, Anderson, Valamaki, Markstrom that he can mold. There may be some names, plus or minus, in there but I do believe he believes the blueprint is there. I know that is unfashionable to say right now, but i think the organization thinks they are closer to competing than they are rebuilding.

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Old 05-08-2021, 10:02 PM   #11906
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So CBJ are trading that for one year of JG? Not exactly a place players want to be.
Wat?

Why don't players want to be in Columbus? I've had the pleasure of attending a game there and the atmosphere is fantastic.
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Old 05-08-2021, 10:36 PM   #11907
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Iím reasonably sure Sutter was also aware of the expansion draft, or at least considered it.

When I suggested he saw something here it had to do, more so, with the next 2-3 years, not just the next 6 months. I think he sees a core of Lindholm, Tkachuk, Mangiapane, Dube, Backlund, Gio, Tanev, Hanifin, Anderson, Valamaki, Markstrom that he can mold. There may be some names, plus or minus, in there but I do believe he believes the blueprint is there. I know that is unfashionable to say right now, but i think the organization thinks they are closer to competing than they are rebuilding.
Interesting take, but Iím in the opposite camp. I think he came out of retirement hoping to win a Stanley Cup for the Flames in the next 2-3 years. I think he saw a team with some tantalizing pieces that he thought just needed to play with a little more urgency and pace. Now that heís experienced it himself, heís realized that theyíre just a naturally slow team that canít check and canít play at a desirable pace just like the previous coaches. Their finishing ability is also abysmal, but thatís been a common theme now for years now so thatís no surprise. Iím not a massive Sutter fan like many posters on CP, but I actually do find his honesty kind of refreshing. When he calls out players for being too slow or for not finishing, it kind of reinforces the things Iíve been rambling on CP for years.
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Old 05-08-2021, 10:39 PM   #11908
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Interesting take, but Iím in the opposite camp. I think he came out of retirement hoping to win a Stanley Cup for the Flames in the next 2-3 years. I think he saw a team with some tantalizing pieces that he thought just needed to play with a little more urgency and pace. Now that heís experienced it himself, heís realized that theyíre just a naturally slow team that canít check and canít play at a desirable pace just like the previous coaches. Their finishing ability is also abysmal, but thatís been a common theme now for years now so thatís no surprise. Iím not a massive Sutter fan like many posters on CP, but I actually do find his honesty kind of refreshing. When he calls out players for being too slow or for not finishing, it kind of reinforces the things Iíve been rambling on CP for years.
Yeah, Iíve had similar thoughts.

Sutter stating over and over that this team doesnít have the talent is an oddly accurate, and damning condemnation of the team Treliving has spent 7 years building.

I wonder what Tree thinks when Sutter is openly out there almost every post game saying this team doesnít have the skill to score at a high level in this league and that they need to play a specific (defensive) way to find any success.

The more this season plays out, and the more I look at the prospect poolÖTreliving canít get far enough away from this organization quick enough for me.

Yet, I still think heíll continue to be employed and weíll likely see some more futures leveraged this summer.
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Old 05-08-2021, 10:47 PM   #11909
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Yeah, Iíve had similar thoughts.

Sutter stating over and over that this team doesnít have the talent is an oddly accurate, and damning condemnation of the team Treliving has spent 7 years building.

I wonder what Tree thinks when Sutter is openly out there almost every post game saying this team doesnít have the skill to score at a high level in this league and that they need to play a specific (defensive) way to find any success.

The more this season plays out, and the more I look at the prospect poolÖTreliving canít get far enough away from this organization quick enough for me.

Yet, I still think heíll continue to be employed and weíll likely see some more futures leveraged this summer.
Well, if this is the case, why would Sutter have come out of retirement? To tell Treliving he sucks?
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Old 05-08-2021, 10:50 PM   #11910
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Well, if this is the case, why would Sutter have come out of retirement? To tell Treliving he sucks?
Well based on what the guys on Fan 960 have been saying, it seems like the players are worse than Sutter expected.

Notably, it seems like the conditioning and work ethic is not quite up to par.
Sutter wasn't fully aware of this before he went onboard.

However, I'm sure Sutter is still up to the channel. And he's probably going to do all he can to make the improvements that he can control. His job is to make the team win regardless of external circumstances.

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Old 05-08-2021, 10:51 PM   #11911
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Well, if this is the case, why would Sutter have come out of retirement? To tell Treliving he sucks?
No, the man wants to win - and he wants to win here. I personally donít think heís working on a 2-year deadline though. He wants to win here, and whatever path is required to get there I feel like heíll be here for it.
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Old 05-08-2021, 11:04 PM   #11912
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Well based on what the guys on Fan 960 have been saying, it seems like the players are worse than Sutter expected.

Notably, it seems like the conditioning and work ethic is not quite up to par.
Sutter wasn't fully aware of this before he went onboard.

However, I'm sure Sutter is still up to the channel. And he's probably going to do all he can to make the improvements that he can control. His job is to make the team win regardless of external circumstances.
Good. Then that can be addressed and I’m sure the message has been sent and if there’s any question as to who is not able to comply, see ya.

It’s interesting, and this is just coming to me now, but Treliving has made many questionable moves attempting to address the culture of the team by bringing in players; Brouwer, Hamonic, Lazar to name a few. Perhaps (I’m hoping) Sutter is the piece he’s been looking for in that regard.

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Old 05-09-2021, 12:00 AM   #11913
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No, the man wants to win - and he wants to win here. I personally donít think heís working on a 2-year deadline though. He wants to win here, and whatever path is required to get there I feel like heíll be here for it.
I wouldn't be surprised if Sutter knows that the Flames have to start from square one.
He might think it's the only path towards contending for a cup.
If this is the case, he might not be as anti-rebuild as people think. As long as he remains long enough to reap the rewards.

Hopefully he starts to prioritize on-ice development. Development ultimately results in more winning. And Sutter's job is to make the team win. By "win" I mean winning a cup.

However, more likely, I think Sutter wants to team to come into camp with proper conditioning. I do think that the team will be quite a bit better next year. And if the team looks better, the prioritization on development might be thrown out the window.
But even if they succeed, the season might be a one-off, and the Flames will most likely return to mediocrity like they always do.
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Old 05-09-2021, 12:15 AM   #11914
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I will start off by saying if the Flames decide to rebuild I will be okay with it and understand the decision.

Personally what I think will happen is they build around the following core:
Markstrom, Hanifin, Andersson, Tanev, Valimaki, Lindholm, Mangiapane, Dube, Tkachuk, Backlund.

I think Gio is part of their plans but I hope they let Seattle make that call. I think the plan is to still build around Tkachuk but I don’t really know and could see him requesting a trade.

I just get the feeling the plan is to go for it next year. I don’t think all of Gaudreau, Monahan, Gio, Tkachuk will be traded but I think 1-3 of them are gone.

I will be surprised if the org decided to fully tank for the future and do a huge sell off. If they do then Lindholm and Markstrom go from must keep to must move
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Old 05-09-2021, 07:33 AM   #11915
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One thing that struck me was how Sutter said, when he was hired, that he’s seen maybe 10 Flames games this year. I thought it would have been more. Depending on the games, he could have had some incorrect assessments. He sure won’t now.

I doubt he signed on for a fire sale. But he’s certainly up for a big retool. Look at what he did with the Flames as soon as he got a GM chance. That team looked a lot different within 3 seasons.
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Old 05-09-2021, 07:47 AM   #11916
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Yeah, Iíve had similar thoughts.

Sutter stating over and over that this team doesnít have the talent is an oddly accurate, and damning condemnation of the team Treliving has spent 7 years building.

I wonder what Tree thinks when Sutter is openly out there almost every post game saying this team doesnít have the skill to score at a high level in this league and that they need to play a specific (defensive) way to find any success.

The more this season plays out, and the more I look at the prospect poolÖTreliving canít get far enough away from this organization quick enough for me.

Yet, I still think heíll continue to be employed and weíll likely see some more futures leveraged this summer.


You are pissed at Treliving when the focus should be on the players. Are you someone who has been saying for several years that Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk are just not good enough and a tier below other teams top stars?

There is definitely a gap when seeing 3 years of missed 2nds and the missed 1st in 2018 but this is still a better prospect pool than the team has from 05-11.

The reason this rebuild failed is because the top players peaked and regressed instead of moving the team forward. This organization looks bad today because Monahan fell from 1B C on most teams in the league to likely a 3rd line C on a contending team now. Johnny was looking like a franchise player early in his career and when he scored 99pts he spent large chunks of that season pacing for over 120. He has also regressed in his points per game over the last 2 years. Tkachuk at 21 hits 34 goals and 76pts and he also regressed 2 straight years.

I know people will blame Treliving for this but it comes down to the top players just not being good enough and they had him and many of us fooled. End of the day he is responsible but on my opinion the blame falls on the core of this team
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Old 05-09-2021, 08:09 AM   #11917
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Wat?

Why don't players want to be in Columbus? I've had the pleasure of attending a game there and the atmosphere is fantastic.
This is true and many players that were there enjoyed there time there. That being said most players don't want to be there or choose Columbus as a city they want to be. The Athletic had a good article recently on this.

https://theathletic.com/2546910/2021...shared-article

What is there to entice Gaudreau to sign there? He has no ties to that city, it isn't really close to home, and they are nowhere near a contender team.
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Old 05-09-2021, 11:10 AM   #11918
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Didn’t know where to put this but I just read that Monahan is being put on left wing so gawdin can come into lineup and play center . Sutter said Gawdin has been busting his but in practice and because of that he wants to see him in a game. Also said if you are on taxi squad , the only way to get into regular lineup is to bust your but in practice. Found that interesting when we wonder why Kylington never gets into lineup .
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Old 05-09-2021, 11:14 AM   #11919
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Didnít know where to put this but I just read that Monahan is being put on left wing so gawdin can come into lineup and play center . Sutter said Gawdin has been busting his but in practice and because of that he wants to see him in a game. Also said if you are on taxi squad , the only way to get into regular lineup is to bust your but in practice. Found that interesting when we wonder why Kylington never gets into lineup .
it would be so Flames to bury a talent like Kylington because of practice. Not the game.
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Old 05-09-2021, 11:19 AM   #11920
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Didnít know where to put this but I just read that Monahan is being put on left wing so gawdin can come into lineup and play center . Sutter said Gawdin has been busting his but in practice and because of that he wants to see him in a game. Also said if you are on taxi squad , the only way to get into regular lineup is to bust your but in practice. Found that interesting when we wonder why Kylington never gets into lineup .
Pretty Flames to try a 1/2 point per game AHL player that's 24 years old in the top 6 after getting rid of Bennett.
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