"Me Too"

[Minnie]

Funnily enough (or not really), the place I dealt with the least amount of, or should I say don't ever feel as though I experienced harassment, was working in a corporate environment (financial management company/RPFL). I was always treated with respect there.

As for assault, that happened at 6 (traveling "evangelist") and 11(uncle). Attempts at groping happened continuously with another uncle throughout my life, though typically I've been able to avoid him.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

The whole tip culture makes things worse. When you go to a Chinese restaurant for example do you ever notice the waitress? And thus tip little.

What?

Lots of pubs/chains dress their female staff in revealing or skimpy uniforms, it isn’t “tip culture”. Most nice restaurants you will see classy dressed wait-staff.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Minnie

Funnily enough (or not really), the place I dealt with the least amount of, or should I say don't ever feel as though I experienced harassment, was working in a corporate environment (financial management company/RPFL). I was always treated with respect there.

As for assault, that happened at 6 (traveling "evangelist") and 11(uncle). Attempts at groping happened continuously with another uncle throughout my life, though typically I've been able to avoid him.

I'm the exact opposite. I've been treated nice as a waitress.. my Chinese restaurant example and continue to struggle in middle management with the men at work in the corporate world.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Personally, I would only use pet names like 'darling', 'honey', or 'sweetheart' with my partner. If a female coworker wants to call me 'babe' or 'darling' or anything, I'd find that unusual bordering on uncomfortable unless she did that to literally everyone. I would submit that, should you be concerned about inadvertently offending a female coworker, you simply call her by her name. If you outrank her, Ms Last Name. Be professional.

In situations where you are fortunate enough to have a woman remark upon your haircut or clothes, you should probably say 'thank you' and leave it at that. I've occasionally noticed my when women in the office have done something to their hair. Often times, several days after the fact - if I do say anything, it's limited to 'did you get your hair done? It looks nice'. I'm only addressing it because it's an obvious change (Somewhat) and I feel it would be rude to never say anything.

Asking yourself 'is this creepy?' is never a bad thing. Asking how you'd feel if someone said X to your daughter. Look them in the eye when you talk to them. Be a human being. And if the hot chick at work is wearing a dynamite top with homewrecker of a skirt, maybe just say a small prayer thanking God for brightening your day, and keep it to yourself. Pretend you've seen a woman before.


I have slept with nearly 10 women in my life. In every single occasion, the boundaries of what was acceptable and what was not were very apparent to all involved. So much so that I have come to believe this about consent: you can tell a woman wants to have sex with you because she's having sex with you. And there are two types of people: the people who understand what I'm saying, and rapists.

We’re not just talking about sex though. We’re getting as detailed as simple daily compliments. No one ever consents to a compliment. There’s a large gap between “Hey that color looks great on you.” And “wooo look at that ass!!” But is the first one not considered okay? Just seems like pleasant conversation to me. I’m obviously willing to adjust myself if things like that are deemed to make people uncomfortable. It just seems like a bit of an over correction maybe? I mean I’ll compliment another guys shirt or tie or whatever, so is it just a difference because women deal with it so much that it’s at a point of bothersome even when done with taste and innocence?

And in reference to a sexual scenario, I’m not questioning whether or not going beyond those obvious signs is assault. I’m questioning that if those signs do pop up, was I harassing or assaulting in the first place? Example, I’m with a girl on the couch. I Make a move to kiss her when I feel like the opening is there and it seems to be accepted briefly but then she backs away. Fair enough I won’t pursue it beyond that really. But then is the initial kiss being looked at as an unwanted advance?

[WCW Nitro]

Is the way women are presented in society an issue that bears some responsibility as well? For example, on sports stations you can have older/fatter men as hosts or reporters, but most of the women have a certain look. Comic books sexualize the female characters to a ridiculous degree. and on and on. Obviously the men who do these things should get 100% of the blame, but I wonder if women are not being respected enough because quite often their looks are the focus for many industries which may be subconsciously affecting how society views them.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by MattyC

We’re not just talking about sex though. We’re getting as detailed as simple daily compliments. No one ever consents to a compliment. There’s a large gap between “Hey that color looks great on you.” And “wooo look at that ass!!” But is the first one not considered okay? Just seems like pleasant conversation to me. I’m obviously willing to adjust myself if things like that are deemed to make people uncomfortable. It just seems like a bit of an over correction maybe? I mean I’ll compliment another guys shirt or tie or whatever, so is it just a difference because women deal with it so much that it’s at a point of bothersome even when done with taste and innocence?

And in reference to a sexual scenario, I’m not questioning whether or not going beyond those obvious signs is assault. I’m questioning that if those signs do pop up, was I harassing or assaulting in the first place? Example, I’m with a girl on the couch. I Make a move to kiss her when I feel like the opening is there and it seems to be accepted briefly but then she backs away. Fair enough I won’t pursue it beyond that really. But then is the initial kiss being looked at as an unwanted advance?

Everyone always has the right to pull the plug on every sexual situation. If you kiss her and she pulls back and you stop, I have to imagine she views you more favorably because you respected her boundaries. The initial kiss could always be seen as unwanted, but if you're already in a quasi date environment, you're probably fine.

Be a gentleman, that's all

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Is the way women are presented in society an issue that bears some responsibility as well? For example, on sports stations you can have older/fatter men as hosts or reporters, but most of the women have a certain look. Comic books sexualize the female characters to a ridiculous degree. and on and on. Obviously the men who do these things should get 100% of the blame, but I wonder if women are not being respected enough because quite often their looks are the focus for many industries which may be subconsciously affecting how society views them.

That would be a good thing to do differently then. Not sure how one could go about encouraging less objectification in media but it would be a noble cause.

[81MC]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Be a gentleman, that's all

Word.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

You guys mention bars, restaurants and waitresses here that not a huge issue. You can gawk. It pales in comparison to the crap executives do to females in the workplace. It's abuse of power and psychological.

Wasn't an attempt to minimize anything, sorry if it came off that way. My corporate experience is that some of the same guys who are respectful to women in the office are #######s at the bar/restaurant.

Maybe it helped that my long time superviser at work was a woman (in an engineering role). I wonder if you get a couple of D-bags going unchecked which then becomes the corporate culture.

I truly hope that turns around for you and anyone affected though. IMO work should be about productivity, and harassment has no place there whatsoever. Especially from a superior.

[calgaryblood]

Look no further than the PGT after a win for objectification of women.

If men don't think that has an effect on the way we view women they are only fooling themselves. They are looked as sex objects and IMO getting rid of that mindset is a great start.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Is the way women are presented in society an issue that bears some responsibility as well? For example, on sports stations you can have older/fatter men as hosts or reporters, but most of the women have a certain look. Comic books sexualize the female characters to a ridiculous degree. and on and on. Obviously the men who do these things should get 100% of the blame, but I wonder if women are not being respected enough because quite often their looks are the focus for many industries which may be subconsciously affecting how society views them.

Um, YES. Women's looks are a focus of society as a whole. Not just a few industries.

And as discussed a bit earlier in the thread, it's not always nefarious. So many adults focus first on young girl's appearance, and compliment them on it (cute shirt, nice hair, pretty shoes! Etc). Whereas we are more inclined to say things like "cool legos!" "Can I see your truck?" Or that type of conversation with boys.

It places the emphasis on appearance and importance thereof from a very young age.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Look no further than the PGT after a win for objectification of women.

If men don't think that has an effect on the way we view women they are only fooling themselves. They are looked as sex objects and IMO getting rid of that mindset is a great start.

You want to see a prime example of the prevailing attitudes that lead to this nonsense, go dig up the big discussion we had here a few years back when we shut down the weird jerkoff thread. Some of the meltdowns dudes were having about having their titty pictures taken away were downright embarrassing.

[snootchiebootchies]

Originally Posted by Peanut

Um, YES. Women's looks are a focus of society as a whole. Not just a few industries.

And as discussed a bit earlier in the thread, it's not always nefarious. So many adults focus first on young girl's appearance, and compliment them on it (cute shirt, nice hair, pretty shoes! Etc). Whereas we are more inclined to say things like "cool legos!" "Can I see your truck?" Or that type of conversation with boys.

It places the emphasis on appearance and importance thereof from a very young age.

I personally think it's fine to compliment on my own daughter's appearance but I do not compliment the appearance of a young girl I don't know. Just seems like a weird boundary to cross. Similarly, I will compliment the appearance of my female friends in a social setting but I never compliment the appearance of my female co-workers at my workplace, unless we are good friends (meaning we socialize outside of work and have mutual friends). Just seems like another weird boundary to cross. I don't have hard and fast rules for myself. Seems like a matter of common sense and respecting boundaries, although I realize those boundaries are highly subjective.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by rubecube

You want to see a prime example of the prevailing attitudes that lead to this nonsense, go dig up the big discussion we had here a few years back when we shut down the weird jerkoff thread. Some of the meltdowns dudes were having about having their titty pictures taken away were downright embarrassing.

That was the cringiest thing that ever graced these boards.

When the complaints and debate about it started, I actually started viewing it to figure out what guys on this site were total weirdos. Not for the girls but more for "Hmmmmmm looks like poster _______ has questionable ideas about barely legal Asian girls wearing junior high school outfits being somehow appropriate." It was almost like getting access to some of their browser histories.

It stuck out like a sore thumb on an otherwords decent site.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by snootchiebootchies

I personally think it's fine to compliment on my own daughter's appearance but I do not compliment the appearance of a young girl I don't know. Just seems like a weird boundary to cross. Similarly, I will compliment the appearance of my female friends in a social setting but I never compliment the appearance of my female co-workers at my workplace, unless we are good friends (meaning we socialize outside of work and have mutual friends). Just seems like another weird boundary to cross. I don't have hard and fast rules for myself. Seems like a matter of common sense and respecting boundaries, although I realize those boundaries are highly subjective.

Do you compliment your son’s appearance the same way you compliment your daughter’s? If you don’t have a son, would you? Do you compliment the appearance of your male friends the same way you compliment the appearance of your female friends?

I am not saying we should treat everyone exactly the same. I am saying we should be aware of whom we treat differently, when we treat them differently, and why we do so. Once we are aware of those things, I think an understanding of if we need to change our behavior will follow almost automatically.

[Slava]

I could be entirely wrong, but I thought that the "me too" campaign was women saying "me too" for being sexually assaulted or raped? (No, that doesn't make all these other things you guys are talking right or condone them) I'm just wondering if I'm wrong or this has been expanded or something like that?

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by Slava

I could be entirely wrong, but I thought that the "me too" campaign was women saying "me too" for being sexually assaulted or raped? (No, that doesn't make all these other things you guys are talking right or condone them) I'm just wondering if I'm wrong or this has been expanded or something like that?

That would have been more powerful. But I think it includes harrassment as well. So any girl who has been catcalled to gang-raped. Basically #allgirls.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

That would have been more powerful. But I think it includes harrassment as well. So any girl who has been catcalled to gang-raped. Basically #allgirls.

I hope this comes out right, but when I thought it was all sexual assault or rape I was mortified that there were so many women in that situation.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by driveway

So, this trend is sweeping social media, I'm sure you've seen it, if you haven't please go google it.

My mother just posted it.

Many of the members of this forum are men, so this is what I want to ask us:
What are we doing to prevent sexual harrassment and assault?

What are YOU doing? Are you going to call our your friend the next time they hit on a waitress? What about your buddy at work who makes those kinda funny but-right-on-the-edge jokes? What are you going to change in your own life?

The first thing I can think of that I'm going to change: my friend and I like to go down to where the nightclubs are in Taipei, get some drinks from 7-11 and hang out while we watch the girls go in and out of the clubs. I'm not doing that anymore.

So what else are we going to do?

wonder how many guys are willing to maybe reassess the type of porn they consume.
some of the crap out there fosters more inappropriate attitudes towards women than someone like yourself innocently sitting outside admiring a few women going by.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by Peanut

There's research (or, videos explaining research) that show toddlers really young start to be aware of genderized differences. I should go back and find the video but I want to say it might have been as young as 18-24 months? The girls start recognizing the pink, "feminine" things are for them, and the boys recognize mostly that pink isn't for them. Maybe they're more prone to blues and greens and stuff.

Anyways. I've learned a lot over the years but my first daughter was buried in an avalanche of pink. I try to be more gender neutral now.

I seem to notice this becoming more and more prevalent as time goes on. I'm in my 30s, and I don't recall nearly so many distinctly gendered products for children back then. Yeah, boys had action figures and girls had dolls, but it felt like there was a wide array of gender-less entertainment available when I was younger. Now it feels like absolutely everything has to be either pink or blue. Like we're now hyper aware of gender norms. And not just for children's toys--like why are there specific pens that are marketed to women? We all have hands. They aren't different enough to warrant different pens.

Originally Posted by Minnie

Funnily enough (or not really), the place I dealt with the least amount of, or should I say don't ever feel as though I experienced harassment, was working in a corporate environment (financial management company/RPFL). I was always treated with respect there.

As for assault, that happened at 6 (traveling "evangelist") and 11(uncle). Attempts at groping happened continuously with another uncle throughout my life, though typically I've been able to avoid him.

Ahh, the good old "evangelist" types. Grew up a Jehovah's Witness, only to discover that the religion as a whole has a massive problem with keeping child sexual abuse private (as well as other abuses, but that's another discussion) and out of the hands of authorities. It goes back to the power imbalance issue, which is heightened in many religions. Assault and abuse are huge problems in many religions.

I grew up being taught that only boys could be ministers, only boys could have positions of responsibility in the church, only boys were given privileges because girls are "weaker vessels." That messes with your head in a whole different way than being given pink toys does. It's taken years to break that subconscious train of thought.

I'm one of the incredibly fortunate women who doesn't have to add "me too," but the vast number of my friends and family are on that list. It's refreshing to see an open and respectful discussion about this. I have to give almost all members in this thread a huge thumbs-up for their handling of the topics at hand.