Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

No, that'd be a no. It's not an apt analogy.

So the Flames can expect to see a return on their capital investment but that's just doing business.

The city expecting to see a return on their capital investment and is "getting paid back?"


Then what's the ticket tax? Is that not 'getting paid back' either?

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by stone hands

if thats the model the flames take, 100% yes

From this thread, i really dont think you grasp that some people genuinely do not care about hockey or the flames. this is a luxury entertainment item people like you and me voluntarily pay for to consume

This is the entire negotiation in a nutshell as far as I'm concerned. Arena supporters think it is a privilege for all Calgarians to have a new building in their city and deem the city a dump without it. It would suck to lose the Flames (which I cannot see happening) but Calgary would go on.

This city has borderline catastrophic infrastructure, transit and schooling shortfalls to deal with amongst other things that I'm not willing to kick to the curb in lieu of Murray Edwards new playhouse (and this is coming from a lifelong Flames fan). What do some people expect the vast majority of fringe NHL fans in this city to say to these negotiations?

[Mazrim]

Meanwhile, in Detroit... https://www.nhl.com/video/recap-tbl-...674/c-53563803

You may have noticed lots of empty seats for the Red Wings home games in their brand new arena. Is that what $863 Million ($324 Million of that being Public funding) buys you? Overpriced seats people can't actually afford?

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

So the Flames can expect to see a return on their capital investment but that's just doing business.

The city expecting to see a return on their capital investment and is "getting paid back?"


Then what's the ticket tax? Is that not 'getting paid back' either?

I'm unclear why you are arguing the position of the city being paid back for initial capital investment?
That is exactly the position of the city, unless I misunderstand. There will be no capital investment that does not provide directly proportional public good, or is not recouped.
There are saying they want to be paid back their investment.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

So the Flames can expect to see a return on their capital investment but that's just doing business.

The city expecting to see a return on their capital investment and is "getting paid back?"


Then what's the ticket tax? Is that not 'getting paid back' either?

If it's rent/property tax, then it's not a capital investment return. If the Flames lose money does the City get no property tax or rent? Unless a different deal than usual is done, then they do, so it's not a return on capital investment.

The ticket tax is not "getting paid back". It's a surcharge for an express purpose. That can't be considered a return, nor is it a contribution from either party.

[CorbeauNoir]

LCA was an Edmonton type of scenario where a chunk of downtown was being rebuilt at the same time. 863mil isn't the cost of the arena alone.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

I'm unclear why you are arguing the position of the city being paid back for initial capital investment?
That is exactly the position of the city, unless I misunderstand. There will be no capital investment that does not provide directly proportional public good, or is not recouped.
There are saying they want to be paid back their investment.

The point is all sides want to be paid back.

Pretending like the Flames don't expect their contribution to be paid back is, to put it bluntly, ####ing ridiculous.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

The point is all sides want to be paid back.

Pretending like the Flames don't expect their contribution to be paid back is, to put it bluntly, ####ing ridiculous.

Honestly, I dislike the fact that they've succeeded in getting the word "contribution" used so loosely. The Flames are proposing that they "contribute" $0.00 to the construction of the new arena... it's just at the same time they're proposing that, should the city build a new one, that they pay $100M in lifetime rent for a lifetime lease.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

Meanwhile, in Detroit... https://www.nhl.com/video/recap-tbl-...674/c-53563803

You may have noticed lots of empty seats for the Red Wings home games in their brand new arena. Is that what $863 Million ($324 Million of that being Public funding) buys you? Overpriced seats people can't actually afford?

This is the part that I don't think people are factoring in. This new arena is going to cost the average fan who goes to Flames games a ton of money. Very likely your new seat isn't going to be any bigger or more comfortable than your current seat, very likely you'll end up just as far or further from the action. But you'll pay a ton more per ticket and likely for concessions - in return - you'll get a bigger concourse (so people will go out there more and spend more money).

Unless you hate the Saddledome - as ticket paying fan - this new building is not going to improve anything for you and cost you a ton more money per game.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

This is the entire negotiation in a nutshell as far as I'm concerned. Arena supporters think it is a privilege for all Calgarians to have a new building in their city and deem the city a dump without it. It would suck to lose the Flames (which I cannot see happening) but Calgary would go on.

This city has borderline catastrophic infrastructure, transit and schooling shortfalls to deal with amongst other things that I'm not willing to kick to the curb in lieu of Murray Edwards new playhouse (and this is coming from a lifelong Flames fan). What do some people expect the vast majority of fringe NHL fans in this city to say to these negotiations?

I share your views in the rest of this post, but come on man, that is some serious

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

This is the part that I don't think people are factoring in. This new arena is going to cost the average fan who goes to Flames games a ton of money. Very likely your new seat isn't going to be any bigger or more comfortable than your current seat, very likely you'll end up just as far or further from the action. But you'll pay a ton more per ticket and likely for concessions - in return - you'll get a bigger concourse (so people will go out there more and spend more money).

I think the reality is that a new stadium will simply price a lot of existing fans out of the game. It's the new entertainment business model... cater to a smaller, but better-off, audience to be able to extract more profit per seat.

It's just another reason why public money going to sports teams doesn't sit well with me.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

This is the part that I don't think people are factoring in. This new arena is going to cost the average fan who goes to Flames games a ton of money. Very likely your new seat isn't going to be any bigger or more comfortable than your current seat, very likely you'll end up just as far or further from the action. But you'll pay a ton more per ticket and likely for concessions - in return - you'll get a bigger concourse (so people will go out there more and spend more money).

Unless you hate the Saddledome - as ticket paying fan - this new building is not going to improve anything for you and cost you a ton more money per game.

I've forgotten... what kind of ticket price increase (percentage relative to the current price) would we expect to see on a new arena?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I've forgotten... what kind of ticket price increase (percentage relative to the current price) would we expect to see on a new arena?

I think Edmonton went up around 25%?

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I think Edmonton went up around 25%?

Did the concessions go up by a similar percentage (if that's the right amount... I vaguely recall seeing 40% but don't remember for certain)?

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I've forgotten... what kind of ticket price increase (percentage relative to the current price) would we expect to see on a new arena?

Here are some of the numbers back in 2015

https://globalnews.ca/news/2129664/e...owntown-arena/

and

https://www.coppernblue.com/2015/7/2...s-rexall-place

I think from the second link the general feeling is the Oilers gouged a bit more compared to other new rinks.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Here are some of the numbers back in 2015

https://globalnews.ca/news/2129664/e...owntown-arena/

and

https://www.coppernblue.com/2015/7/2...s-rexall-place

I think from the second link the general feeling is the Oilers gouged a bit more compared to other new rinks.

Not just a new rink - you also get to see McDavid in the new arena!!

[Parallex]

Then I don't see why the ticket tax is being set so low. Edmonton's ticket tax is at 7% so if the city were to set it at say 15% the Flames should still be drawing more revenue on just ticket sales then they otherwise would at the 'Dome along with making more from concessions (assuming a price bump there as well).

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Then I don't see why the ticket tax is being set so low. Edmonton's ticket tax is at 7% so if the city were to set it at say 15% the Flames should still be drawing more revenue on just ticket sales then they otherwise would at the 'Dome along with making more from concessions (assuming a price bump there as well).

If the two sides actually negotiated you might get there. But so far I don't consider what's happened to far to be any kind of negotiation - just an exchange of positions and a meeting where they sniped at each other, with no real back and forth discussions.

[ToraToraTora]

Apparantly the Canadian Bar Association is putting on an event with Ken King to offer tips and tricks in effective negotiation.

I want to know how he negotiated himself from a popular member of the community to someone who many Flames fans wouldn't help if he fell into a well.

[thymebalm]

Originally Posted by ToraToraTora

Apparantly the Canadian Bar Association is putting on an event with Ken King to offer tips and tricks in effective negotiation.

I want to know how he negotiated himself from a popular member of the community to someone who many Flames fans wouldn't help if he fell into a well.

I'd help him out of the well, I just don't want to have to do 120% of the work to get him out.