The Home Improvement Thread

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by timun

C'mon guys, don't be absurd... the electrical code doesn't say you need a permit to replace a light bulb.

The point of making you apply for a BP for a shed over 10 sqm is so that you are complying with the lot coverage and setback requirements in the Land Use Bylaw. Is a packaged pergola from Costco likely to fall over? No, but some hillbilly lean-to may be a hazard.

Do you have a permit to be so didactic?

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by timun

C'mon guys, don't be absurd... the electrical code doesn't say you need a permit to replace a light bulb.

The point of making you apply for a BP for a shed over 10 sqm is so that you are complying with the lot coverage and setback requirements in the Land Use Bylaw. Is a packaged pergola from Costco likely to fall over? No, but some hillbilly lean-to may be a hazard.

Have you read the code book? It's literally the 3rd rule in it lol.

Verbatim it reads:

2-004 Permit
Electrical contractors or others responsible for carrying out the work shall obtain a permit from the inspection department before commencing work with respect to installation, alteration, repair or extension of any electrical equipment.

There is no reference to any appendices which allow for the inspection department to overrule this. Technically if you install a light bulb and burn your house (and maybe your neighbors) to the ground you can be held legally responsible.

This would never be enforced but it is code, and it's ridiculous.

[timun]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Do you have a permit to be so didactic?

No, but I have had coworkers tell me I should teach.

[timun]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Have you read the code book? It's literally the 3rd rule in it lol.

Yep, got a copy of it.

Verbatim it reads:

2-004 Permit
Electrical contractors or others responsible for carrying out the work shall obtain a permit from the inspection department before commencing work with respect to installation, alteration, repair or extension of any electrical equipment.

Uh-huh, and where does a light bulb come into play in this?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by timun

Yep, got a copy of it.



Uh-huh, and where does a light bulb come into play in this?

Installing or repairing electrical equipment. Or altering it if you say, use an LED bulb in a lamp that came with an incandescent. See how ridiculous it can become?

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by timun

C'mon guys, don't be absurd... the electrical code doesn't say you need a permit to replace a light bulb.

The point of making you apply for a BP for a shed over 10 sqm is so that you are complying with the lot coverage and setback requirements in the Land Use Bylaw. Is a packaged pergola from Costco likely to fall over? No, but some hillbilly lean-to may be a hazard.

What is the land use bylaw for what % of lot can be covered?


Again, this isn't even a shed. It's four posts with an aluminum roof.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by timun

Yep, got a copy of it.



Uh-huh, and where does a light bulb come into play in this?

If you can read and interpret the rule, it's in the rule. If your light fixture requires repair or alteration (changing a light bulb) you need a permit.

[timun]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Installing or repairing electrical equipment.

Ah, but what is "electrical equipment"?

(Socratic method )

[timun]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

If you can read and interpret the rule, it's in the rule. If your light fixture requires repair or alteration (changing a light bulb) you need a permit.

No, that's not what the rule says, it says "... with respect to installation, alteration, repair or extension of any electrical equipment".

[timun]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

What is the land use bylaw for what % of lot can be covered?

Depends on your zoning, but typically 45%.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

What is the land use bylaw for what % of lot can be covered?


Again, this isn't even a shed. It's four posts with an aluminum roof.

Yeah I wouldn't bother with a permit. What they're concerned with is drainage and setback. So comply with the setback. You won't have a problem with drainage as the ground is still there to absorb water if needed.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by timun

Ah, but what is "electrical equipment"?

(Socratic method )

That's also in the code book, you should really give it a read. If you have any say in any electrical matters you should really reconsider your qualifications. You've given out some horrible advice in your post history that I didn't call out before, but for future reference I would not take a single piece of advice from this poster as far as construction goes. You are smart enough to be dangerous and not really know what you're talking about.


Section 0 Object, Scope and Definitions
Electrical Equipment - Any apparatus, appliance, device, instrument, fitting, fixture, luminaire, machinery, material, or thing used in or for, or capable of being used in or for, the generation, transformation, transmission, distribution, supply, or utilization of electric power or energy, and, without restricting the generality of the foregoing, includes any assemblages combination of materials or things that is used, or is capable of being used or adapted, to serve or perform any particular purpose or function when connected to an electrical installation. Notwithstanding that any such of materials or things may be mechanical, metallic or non-electric in origin.

Timun if you wanna keep playing this game I'll make a bet with you, $500 towards a Ukrainian charity of Zamler/Huntingwhales choice that says I'm right.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

If you can read and interpret the rule, it's in the rule. If your light fixture requires repair or alteration (changing a light bulb) you need a permit.

Doesn’t “alteration” just imply using different than specified? eg) the fixture’s manufacturer specifies 60W max. bulb and you want put in a 100W bulb.

Also, if changing the rules are so stringent that replacing a lightbulb needs a permit, then wouldn’t plugging anything into any receptacle require a permit?

[PaperBagger'14]

Timun did see this post earlier tonight and didn't reply, FYI. I saw him as a poster viewing this thread and he peaced out after the bet . Glad he learned a lesson.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Doesn’t “alteration” just imply using different than specified? eg) the fixture’s manufacturer specifies 60W max. bulb and you want put in a 100W bulb.

Also, if changing the rules are so stringent that replacing a lightbulb needs a permit, then wouldn’t plugging anything into any receptacle require a permit?

Things plugged into receptacles fall under the Canadian Electrical Code Part 2. Part 1 is what supplies electricity, Part 2 is what consumes electricity (in layman's terms). But yes if you put 100W worth of bulbs into a piece of electrical equipment rated for 60w, you would be violating part 1 of the code book, which is why you technically need a permit

Replacing a bulb would more than likely fall under the repair wording, not alteration, as you should likely be repairing your fixture with a bulb with the same rating

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Things plugged into receptacles fall under the Canadian Electrical Code Part 2. Part 1 is what supplies electricity, Part 2 is what consumes electricity (in layman's terms).

That’s why I am wondering why a lightbulb would be considered any differently from something, like a blender, for the purposes of this conversation about what needs a permit. Is the light socket substantially different from a wall receptacle in how the home owner can use it?

It seems odd that one would technically need a permit to change a lightbulb out from a fixture, but not unplugging and plugging in a new device to the wall outlet.

edit: saw your edit later, so you answered most of this.

[timun]

EDIT:

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Timun did see this post earlier tonight and didn't reply, FYI. I saw him as a poster viewing this thread and he peaced out after the bet . Glad he learned a lesson.

Alrighty, first of all:

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Timun if you wanna keep playing this game I'll make a bet with you, $500 towards a Ukrainian charity of Zamler/Huntingwhales choice that says I'm right.

Wager accepted.


That out of the way:

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

That's also in the code book, you should really give it a read.

Again, I have a copy of it, and I have read it. I'm subtly reminding you that there is a glossary in Section 0, so that you read it...

If you have any say in any electrical matters you should really reconsider your qualifications. You've given out some horrible advice in your post history that I didn't call out before, but for future reference I would not take a single piece of advice from this poster as far as construction goes. You are smart enough to be dangerous and not really know what you're talking about.

I know precisely what I'm talking about. The problem here is that you are a self-professed expert on all electrical matters—stereotypical electrician —you don't like being reminded that other people also know what they're talking about, and can't admit when you're wrong.

And you are wrong on this matter, categorically.

Section 0 Object, Scope and Definitions
Electrical Equipment - Any apparatus, appliance, device, instrument, fitting, fixture, luminaire, machinery, material, or thing used in or for, or capable of being used in or for, the generation, transformation, transmission, distribution, supply, or utilization of electric power or energy, and, without restricting the generality of the foregoing, includes any assemblages combination of materials or things that is used, or is capable of being used or adapted, to serve or perform any particular purpose or function when connected to an electrical installation. Notwithstanding that any such of materials or things may be mechanical, metallic or non-electric in origin.

And you're so close to figuring out how you're wrong!

I'll save you the trouble of having to look up the definition of luminaire:

Luminaire — a complete lighting unit designed to accommodate the lamp(s) and to connect the lamp(s) to circuit conductors.

A "unit designed to accommodate the lamp(s)", not the lamps (light bulbs) themselves, thus Rule 2-004 does NOT apply to a ####ing light bulb. And of course it doesn't, on the face of it that'd be just stupid. If that was the case why aren't you out there drumming up business for yourself, reminding the Building Services department that homeowners can't be out there replacing light bulbs on their own? Because they'd laugh you out of the room, that's why.

And if that's not enough to convince you (because I can already hear you arguing from here about how the luminaire is a "COMPLETE LIGHTING UNIT, THEREFORE THAT INCLUDES THE LAMPS!!1!") let's circle back to your earlier post:

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Have you read the code book? It's literally the 3rd rule in it lol.

Verbatim it reads:

2-004 Permit
Electrical contractors or others responsible for carrying out the work shall obtain a permit from the inspection department before commencing work with respect to installation, alteration, repair or extension of any electrical equipment.

There is no reference to any appendices which allow for the inspection department to overrule this. Technically if you install a light bulb and burn your house (and maybe your neighbors) to the ground you can be held legally responsible.

This would never be enforced but it is code, and it's ridiculous.

First you say "there is no reference to any appendices which allow for the inspection department to overrule this," but then you turn around and say "this would never be enforced". So which one is it, bucko? If this cannot be overruled, how is it that it is never enforced? I'll let you pause and ponder that for a moment.







The truth is, of course, that the code is adopted by regulation and absolutely can be overruled by the authority having jurisdiction. It is overruled all the time. That's why the Ministry of Municipal Affairs publishes STANDATA.

You know what's a real interesting STANDATA? 21-ECB-002, specifically the bit about Rule 2-004. I'm sure you know where to find the STANDATA in question, but for everyone else's edification it says:

"The Permit Regulation supersedes this rule. Part 1 of the regulation sets the requirements to whom permits may be issued and under what conditions, as well as where permits are required throughout the province. Part 2 sets the requirements for administration of the Permit Regulation."

I'll close the loop for everyone and quote the Permit Regulation (AR 204/2007) for you; bolded and red is my emphasis:

Electrical permit
8(1) A permit in the electrical discipline is required to install, alter or add to an electrical system.
(2) Despite subsection (1), a permit is not required for the following:

(a) communication systems;
(b) electrical installations to which the CSA Standard CAN/CSA M421-00(R2000) The Use of Electricity in Mines applies;
(c) electrical installations related to an elevating device;
(d) extra low voltage, Class 2 electrical circuits unless they
are for any of the following:

(i) safety control;
(ii) locations described as hazardous in the Electrical
Code;
(iii) electro-medical purposes;
(iv) lighting;

(e) the replacement of electrical equipment with units of a similar type if the replacement is made for the purpose of maintaining the system and does not modify the ratings or characteristics of the electrical installation.

So explain to all us peons, oh mighty electrical expert, how we need permits to replace our light bulbs. Please, we're all waiting on bated breath.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Wormius

That’s why I am wondering why a lightbulb would be considered any differently from something, like a blender, for the purposes of this conversation about what needs a permit. Is the light socket substantially different from a wall receptacle in how the home owner can use it?

It seems odd that one would technically need a permit to change a lightbulb out from a fixture, but not unplugging and plugging in a new device to the wall outlet.

The size of sockets for light bulbs are engineered so that you can't place a street lamp sized bulb in your bedroom light fixture. There's a reason why your Christmas lights use 120V but you can't use a regular light in them

[timun]

Boy am I looking forward to the backpedalling on this. Can't wait for the bull#### excuses.

Slava Ukraini, PaperBagger!

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by timun

EDIT:



Alrighty, first of all:



Wager accepted.


That out of the way:



Again, I have a copy of it, and I have read it. I'm subtly reminding you that there is a glossary in Section 0, so that you read it...



I know precisely what I'm talking about. The problem here is that you are a self-professed expert on all electrical matters—stereotypical electrician —you don't like being reminded that other people also know what they're talking about, and can't admit when you're wrong.

And you are wrong on this matter, categorically.



And you're so close to figuring out how you're wrong!

I'll save you the trouble of having to look up the definition of luminaire:

Luminaire — a complete lighting unit designed to accommodate the lamp(s) and to connect the lamp(s) to circuit conductors.

A "unit designed to accommodate the lamp(s)", not the lamps (light bulbs) themselves, thus Rule 2-004 does NOT apply to a ####ing light bulb. And of course it doesn't, on the face of it that'd be just stupid. If that was the case why aren't you out there drumming up business for yourself, reminding the Building Services department that homeowners can't be out there replacing light bulbs on their own? Because they'd laugh you out of the room, that's why.

And if that's not enough to convince you (because I can already hear you arguing from here about how the luminaire is a "COMPLETE LIGHTING UNIT, THEREFORE THAT INCLUDES THE LAMPS!!1!") let's circle back to your earlier post:



First you say "there is no reference to any appendices which allow for the inspection department to overrule this," but then you turn around and say "this would never be enforced". So which one is it, bucko? If this cannot be overruled, how is it that it is never enforced? I'll let you pause and ponder that for a moment.







The truth is, of course, that the code is adopted by regulation and absolutely can be overruled by the authority having jurisdiction. It is overruled all the time. That's why the Ministry of Municipal Affairs publishes STANDATA.

You know what's a real interesting STANDATA? 21-ECB-002, specifically the bit about Rule 2-004. I'm sure you know where to find the STANDATA in question, but for everyone else's edification it says:

"The Permit Regulation supersedes this rule. Part 1 of the regulation sets the requirements to whom permits may be issued and under what conditions, as well as where permits are required throughout the province. Part 2 sets the requirements for administration of the Permit Regulation."

I'll close the loop for everyone and quote the Permit Regulation (AR 204/2007) for you; bolded and red is my emphasis:

Electrical permit
8(1) A permit in the electrical discipline is required to install, alter or add to an electrical system.
(2) Despite subsection (1), a permit is not required for the following:

(a) communication systems;
(b) electrical installations to which the CSA Standard CAN/CSA M421-00(R2000) The Use of Electricity in Mines applies;
(c) electrical installations related to an elevating device;
(d) extra low voltage, Class 2 electrical circuits unless they
are for any of the following:

(i) safety control;
(ii) locations described as hazardous in the Electrical
Code;
(iii) electro-medical purposes;
(iv) lighting;

(e) the replacement of electrical equipment with units of a similar type if the replacement is made for the purpose of maintaining the system and does not modify the ratings or characteristics of the electrical installation.

So explain to all us peons, oh mighty electrical expert, how we need permits to replace our light bulbs. Please, we're all waiting on bated breath.

Ooooooh we gonna have fun here. First of all the STANDATA won't stand up in any court if you're trying to override the CEC, it's failed many times before and I'd be glad to prove it. The STANDATA is a localized guideline but if you break the CEC, regardless of local STANDATA you will lose in court.

Second of all, you can call me an engineer sugar t!ts.

Thirdly:

[B](e) the replacement of electrical equipment with units of a similar type if the replacement is made for the purpose of maintaining the system and does not modify the ratings or characteristics of the electrical installation.

Is the average homeowner capable of understanding the ratings and types of electrical devices in their home? They are not. The CEC does not care for this. You either follow the CEC or you do not. The lawsuit is on you for breaking it and STANDATAS have not stood up before in front of a judge. I will never engineer something to break the CEC or stamp it because it's my ass on the line. So no, you're wrong.

If you follow a STANDATA but subvert the CEC you're still liable for damages caused by your install, even if it's a lightbulb