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Old 05-19-2021, 03:33 PM   #12421
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Yep. It’s actually kind of a big problem Canada wide. Canadian hockey fans always blame the stars for not getting it done, but maybe the stars just didn’t get the required help.

Same thing that’s happening with Tkachuk and Gaudreau, happened with Iggy’s era. Everyone blames the core, blames the room, pointing their fingers at the wrong people. Then what happens is those players move on to different teams like Sam Bennett has with Florida and kills it there because they’re finally playing with actual good players.

It’s why Canada is #1 in NTC, NMC and etc. We drive good players away and then we get leftover junk in the UFA market which in turn kind of creates sort of a vicious cycle. If Gaudreau and Tkachuk get moved to deep teams in the summer and get to play with other elite players, they’ll probably win Cups while leading their teams in scoring while we sit here wondering why they couldn’t do that with us.

The problem still remains that our elite players are not good enough. Is Johnny or Matthew winning the cup as the best players on their new teams? I doubt it but they are clearly the best players on the flames.

Supporting cast is a part of it but our best players are not good enough also. Why is everyone scared of Tkachuk’s next contract? Because they question if he is good enough to get paid $9M.
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Old 05-19-2021, 03:38 PM   #12422
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I don’t agree. Our “elite” players did not progress to being elite and we saw this season that the flames top players didn’t match up with the top players in the rest of the division. Flames top players are tiers below the Leafs and Oilers.

When Gaudreau, Monahan, Lindholm and Tkachuk are near or better than ppg this team should be a contender. When they score 0.5-0.75 points per game this team is on the bubble
Management screwed up by experimenting with the roster this season. They thought this team was deep enough to just create pairs of forwards, stick them with league minimum scraps and expect production. The chemistry was completely out of whack and it took until game 40 to finally find a functioning 1st line.

Too little too late. Maybe management shouldn’t have been playing GM mode on Playstation when deciding their line combos. Sure, on a video game or even on paper, things looked ok. But in application, not even close. Bad decisions by everyone involved and they shouldn’t be in charge of scouting this team anymore, find some better scouts Tre.
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Old 05-19-2021, 03:41 PM   #12423
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The problem still remains that our elite players are not good enough. Is Johnny or Matthew winning the cup as the best players on their new teams? I doubt it but they are clearly the best players on the flames.

Supporting cast is a part of it but our best players are not good enough also. Why is everyone scared of Tkachuk’s next contract? Because they question if he is good enough to get paid $9M.
Maybe, maybe not. But together they look pretty dynamic. Management needs to find some actual secondary scoring instead faux secondary scoring. If they can actually succeed in this endeavor, then I give this team a chance to go deep. But they can’t just expect to split Gaudreau and Tkachuk and expect them to drive lines with league minimum scraps again or we’re doomed once again.
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Old 05-19-2021, 03:47 PM   #12424
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Problem is...

Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk is a great 2nd line.

We're still missing a FIRST LINE where an Elite C and Elite Winger can haul around a plug.
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Old 05-19-2021, 03:51 PM   #12425
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I don’t agree. Our “elite” players did not progress to being elite and we saw this season that the flames top players didn’t match up with the top players in the rest of the division. Flames top players are tiers below the Leafs and Oilers.

When Gaudreau, Monahan, Lindholm and Tkachuk are near or better than ppg this team should be a contender. When they score 0.5-0.75 points per game this team is on the bubble
Is that their fault though?

We didn't get a first overall pick - we aren't going to have a Matthews or a McDavid.

Tkachuk is a good pick where he's selected.
Monahan was a good pick where he's selected.
Gaudreau is an amazing pick where he's selected.
Lindholm is good value for the trade we got him for.
Mangiapane is a great pick where he was selected.
Backlund has been good value for where he was selected.

The problem isn't these guys. It's that we have never added more top end talent on top of these guys, or haven't added the depth to help support them better.
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Old 05-19-2021, 03:59 PM   #12426
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The problem still remains that our elite players are not good enough. Is Johnny or Matthew winning the cup as the best players on their new teams? I doubt it but they are clearly the best players on the flames.

Supporting cast is a part of it but our best players are not good enough also. Why is everyone scared of Tkachuk’s next contract? Because they question if he is good enough to get paid $9M.
It would be nice if our best players were better, but we also can't turn water into wine.

It seems like a lot of people think it's easy to trade Gaudreau and Tkachuk for players who are better immediately.

I'm not saying that's impossible, but in my experience, most teams lose when they trade their best player away and try to remain competitive.

Not that I am against trading any player on the roster - we just need to be reasonable in whatever strategy we take next.
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Old 05-19-2021, 05:27 PM   #12427
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Seeing as how his injuries were completely different (wrist v hips) there is no chronic injury implied.

The willingness of GMs to look at him will depend on the nature of the surgery and how well known the outcomes are. There’s a lot of interest in Eichel despite his surgery being kind of experimental.

We don’t know that his wrists were completely healed. He’s had a lesser short fir more than this year. That’s the injury that may be chronic.


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Old 05-19-2021, 05:31 PM   #12428
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Lol....exactly.

When you are minus 11 in 30 playoffs it will not equal many wins.
Players care about the +/- stat. They talk about it all the time.
We were on for 2 goals tonight and cost the team a win....got to be better.
They dont say our Corsi numbers were fantastic so who cares if we win or lose.

Yet Corsi is a much better predictor of future success that plus/minus.


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Old 05-19-2021, 06:31 PM   #12429
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Is that their fault though?

We didn't get a first overall pick - we aren't going to have a Matthews or a McDavid.

Tkachuk is a good pick where he's selected.
Monahan was a good pick where he's selected.
Gaudreau is an amazing pick where he's selected.
Lindholm is good value for the trade we got him for.
Mangiapane is a great pick where he was selected.
Backlund has been good value for where he was selected.

The problem isn't these guys. It's that we have never added more top end talent on top of these guys, or haven't added the depth to help support them better.


Yes in my opinion it is their fault but ultimately the fault is on the GM. Gaudreau was trending to be in the same tier as MacKinnon, McDavid, Matthews when you see how he played in his first 2 seasons and especially the World Cup. He legit looked like a franchise player.

Look what happened when those guys looked like superstars. Not only was Gaudreau, Monahan, Lindholm, Tkachuk, Gio putting up 70+ points but that team had plenty of depth that seems to disappear when the top guns also do not score.

I do not think there is a current playoff team where a Flames player would be that teams best player with the exception of Montreal and maybe Nashville.

I honestly don’t care about draft position it is fairly irrelevant when players are getting paid big money deals. End of the day only Lindholm vastly performed his cap hit this year. Johnny and Tkachuk were not terrible value but Monahan certainly was.

I think the fatal flaw of the rebuild was assuming you had the elite talent needed to take a team far. Johnny looked like he could be a truly special player before he signed his deal and then teased it again in 2019. When our top players were top players this was the second best team in the league.

I do agree with you that Hamonic, Elliott, Neal, Brouwer definitely hurt the team but I still think our top players not really being top players on a contender is the reason this rebuild failed.
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Old 05-19-2021, 06:45 PM   #12430
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Problem is...

Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk is a great 2nd line.

We're still missing a FIRST LINE where an Elite C and Elite Winger can haul around a plug.

^This

Flames need to create higher expectations. Need a plan to create a better and more consistent top line.
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Old 05-19-2021, 07:09 PM   #12431
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Gaudreau has been nothing if not elite this season.

I wasn't around on this site at that point but I cringe to think of the posts in 2009 that might have said Cammalleri-Langkow-Iginla was a great 2nd line. Gaudreau is no Iginla... but he's also benn among the league's best players this year.
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Old 05-19-2021, 07:19 PM   #12432
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Gaudreau has been nothing if not elite this season.

I wasn't around on this site at that point but I cringe to think of the posts in 2009 that might have said Cammalleri-Langkow-Iginla was a great 2nd line. Gaudreau is no Iginla... but he's also benn among the league's best players this year.
Definitely one of the best thirds of a season. Finished with something like 22 points in 16 games I think I heard on the telecast? That line was a consistent driver every game and there’s no reason to think they couldn’t replicate the same thing next season. Perhaps Gaudreau and Tkachuk hit 100 points and re-up for identical contracts.
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Old 05-19-2021, 07:27 PM   #12433
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^This

Flames need to create higher expectations. Need a plan to create a better and more consistent top line.
Is that even realistic though as this is probably the hardest thing a GM can accomplish in this league. Most team’s first lines are made up of elite drafted players. The Flames didn’t draft enough elite players when they were rebuilding and now they’re paying the price.

The Flames would be lucky to just find an excellent second line that can be counted on to take some pressure off the 1st line. I’d take that honestly as I’m not expecting miracles here with the limited asset base this team has and the awful looking UFA crop.
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Old 05-19-2021, 07:38 PM   #12434
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Gaudreau has been nothing if not elite this season.

I wasn't around on this site at that point but I cringe to think of the posts in 2009 that might have said Cammalleri-Langkow-Iginla was a great 2nd line. Gaudreau is no Iginla... but he's also benn among the league's best players this year.
He's 74th in even strength scoring (28 points) this year, right alongside Chandler Stephenson. Elite?
I know PPs are part of the game but 74th in ES points isn't elite.
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Old 05-19-2021, 07:42 PM   #12435
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Yet Corsi is a much better predictor of future success that plus/minus.


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And yet comparing goals for and against is precisely how games are decided
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Old 05-19-2021, 07:44 PM   #12436
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Gaudreau has been nothing if not elite this season.

I wasn't around on this site at that point but I cringe to think of the posts in 2009 that might have said Cammalleri-Langkow-Iginla was a great 2nd line. Gaudreau is no Iginla... but he's also benn among the league's best players this year.

I think your Delorean dropped you a couple years off from where you think it did
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Old 05-19-2021, 07:45 PM   #12437
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And yet comparing goals for and against is precisely how games are decided
You could win 7 games in a row 2-1 and lose one game 8-0

Your goals scored are 14 and your goals against are 15 yet the team is 7-1 so?
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Old 05-19-2021, 07:46 PM   #12438
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Edit: I am very incorrect

Last edited by Scroopy Noopers; 05-19-2021 at 07:50 PM.
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Old 05-19-2021, 07:47 PM   #12439
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You could win 7 games in a row 2-1 and lose one game 8-0

Your goals scored are 14 and your goals against are 15 yet the team is 7-1 so?

And you could have a 55% corsi for and go 11-14 or 12-14 or whatever Darryl just did
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Old 05-19-2021, 08:08 PM   #12440
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Definitely one of the best thirds of a season. Finished with something like 22 points in 16 games I think I heard on the telecast? That line was a consistent driver every game and there’s no reason to think they couldn’t replicate the same thing next season. Perhaps Gaudreau and Tkachuk hit 100 points and re-up for identical contracts.

20 pts in the last 16. (or last 17, 18, 19, or 20).

3-2 against EDM, TOR and WPG; 3-2 against MTL; 4-2 against VAN/OTT.

0.625 (102.5 pt pace); of course that quickly descends as you roll back the calendar.

FWIW, a 0.625 % this year would put us 5th, 4th, 4th in the other divisions; 3rd in the North.

I don't have a particular point.
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