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Old 07-11-2021, 09:01 PM   #21
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Anyway as to batteries, I wonder about all the mining and collection of the minerals required to make these things. I wonder about the environmental impact of making batteries and if it’ll be any better really. Maybe less carbon emissions, but perhaps not less environmental impact. The countries that generate these minerals don’t have great track records either. I believe that cobalt, for example, is a huge problem what with something like ~80% of the worlds cobalt coming from blood-diamond-like conditions in west Africa. Required in all of these batteries…..
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Old 07-11-2021, 09:08 PM   #22
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Anyway as to batteries, I wonder about all the mining and collection of the minerals required to make these things. I wonder about the environmental impact of making batteries and if it’ll be any better really. Maybe less carbon emissions, but perhaps not less environmental impact. The countries that generate these minerals don’t have great track records either. I believe that cobalt, for example, is a huge problem what with something like ~80% of the worlds cobalt coming from blood-diamond-like conditions in west Africa. Required in all of these batteries…..
We don’t really care about that though for anything else we purchase so why care about cobalt. This type of problem is also relatively easy to solve with regulation when people choose to care. Also price and demand increase will drive exploration for materials.

Lithium for example can be found in brackish water in Alberta.
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Old 07-11-2021, 09:09 PM   #23
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This was a really weird statement. Disturbing people feel it even needs to be said.
On CBC's Cross Country Checkup today someone called in and said Oil Executives would be charged like the Nuremberg Trials in the future for their crimes against the environment. So, uh...ya.
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Old 07-11-2021, 09:19 PM   #24
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We don’t really care about that though for anything else we purchase so why care about cobalt. This type of problem is also relatively easy to solve with regulation when people choose to care. Also price and demand increase will drive exploration for materials.

Lithium for example can be found in brackish water in Alberta.
I don’t think that’s “easy to solve with regulations” at all. How do you regulate the mining in Africa if you’re the Canadian government? And yeah, there’s lithium in Alberta, but it’s extremely expensive compared to other sources around the globe, at this point.

I just think a lot of this “zero emissions” for certain things is like the “fat-free” labeling we’ve seen. Sure, the electric scooter or car has zero emissions while your using it, and that’s good. But it’s not actually carbon free because the production is more carbon intensive than other vehicles, and of course the energy is generated somehow. Plenty of foods that are fat-free are actually fat-free. Sure they’re loaded with sugar or whatever, and that gets changed to fat when you don’t burn it off, but the cake itself is fat-free!

Even a lot of the “renewable” energy plays out there are largely natural gas. It’s good marketing, and makes people feel better. And yeah, natural gas is better than coal. But it’s not actually a renewable energy source. Unless we’re on the “it only takes 65 million years to renew the oil reserves” train of thought now?
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Old 07-11-2021, 09:43 PM   #25
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Anyway as to batteries, I wonder about all the mining and collection of the minerals required to make these things. I wonder about the environmental impact of making batteries and if it’ll be any better really. Maybe less carbon emissions, but perhaps not less environmental impact. The countries that generate these minerals don’t have great track records either. I believe that cobalt, for example, is a huge problem what with something like ~80% of the worlds cobalt coming from blood-diamond-like conditions in west Africa. Required in all of these batteries…..

If we continue our high energy lifestyles we’ll just shift the problem from one thing to another. Moving off carbon is the first priority but complete electrification has its own collateral damage. We ultimately need to reduce our overall resource footprint for long term ecological and political stability.
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Old 07-11-2021, 09:43 PM   #26
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This was a really weird statement. Disturbing people feel it even needs to be said.
I agree, and I don't think I've met anyone who disagrees, but wide sweeping statements get made about the O&G industry in general and that can lead to things being taken personally and then we end up with a thread off the rails.

It's really more an attempt by me to show some understanding that this topic can be quite a sensitive topic for some and my opinions are not a value judgement on the people in the industry.
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Old 07-11-2021, 09:45 PM   #27
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On CBC's Cross Country Checkup today someone called in and said Oil Executives would be charged like the Nuremberg Trials in the future for their crimes against the environment. So, uh...ya.
Yep there are lots of ignorant people out there.
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Old 07-11-2021, 09:50 PM   #28
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We don’t really care about that though for anything else we purchase so why care about cobalt. This type of problem is also relatively easy to solve with regulation when people choose to care. Also price and demand increase will drive exploration for materials.

Lithium for example can be found in brackish water in Alberta.
Yeah but last I recall it had dicey economics. It was rich in concentration in Devonian aged plays like Keg River, Leduc, etc. but when we looked at it the econs to capitalize all the water processing / lithium facilities wasn’t really going to justify the Lithium. But that was awhile ago, things could have changed. It also massively depended on where you were, only a couple spots with rich enough concentrations. It’s not going to be some kind of future economic boon for Alberta.

With a huge amount of cobalt coming from basically one spot on earth I don’t think that’s great and seems concerning as I’m sure people are looking for it… Canada likely wouldn’t let you do it though, because this place is a joke and getting a mining permit would take 40 years. Maybe our fumbling over ourselves will look like geopolitical strategic genius in the future though when the rest of the world has used up all their resources and we still have ours. I know that’s the. China strategy that’s for sure.

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Old 07-11-2021, 09:52 PM   #29
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Anyway as to batteries, I wonder about all the mining and collection of the minerals required to make these things. I wonder about the environmental impact of making batteries and if it’ll be any better really. Maybe less carbon emissions, but perhaps not less environmental impact. The countries that generate these minerals don’t have great track records either. I believe that cobalt, for example, is a huge problem what with something like ~80% of the worlds cobalt coming from blood-diamond-like conditions in west Africa. Required in all of these batteries…..
Currently a lot of the cobalt we get is used in oil refining, making of super alloys, etc. Most cobalt currently is used in consumer electronics too. Only a small fraction is mined by hand in the Congo and it is no longer sourced from these "artisinal mines" (though I'm sure it still goes on to some degree and finds it's way into the supply). Most battery manufacturers are starting to use low or zero cobalt materials for their batteries anyways.

As for mining the rest of the needed materials, there's bound to be some environmental impact, and that should be front of mind. Don't forget though, that the existential current problem is GHG emissions and we need to find ways to eliminate those.
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Old 07-11-2021, 09:59 PM   #30
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I don’t think that’s “easy to solve with regulations” at all. How do you regulate the mining in Africa if you’re the Canadian government? And yeah, there’s lithium in Alberta, but it’s extremely expensive compared to other sources around the globe, at this point.

I just think a lot of this “zero emissions” for certain things is like the “fat-free” labeling we’ve seen. Sure, the electric scooter or car has zero emissions while your using it, and that’s good. But it’s not actually carbon free because the production is more carbon intensive than other vehicles, and of course the energy is generated somehow. Plenty of foods that are fat-free are actually fat-free. Sure they’re loaded with sugar or whatever, and that gets changed to fat when you don’t burn it off, but the cake itself is fat-free!

Even a lot of the “renewable” energy plays out there are largely natural gas. It’s good marketing, and makes people feel better. And yeah, natural gas is better than coal. But it’s not actually a renewable energy source. Unless we’re on the “it only takes 65 million years to renew the oil reserves” train of thought now?
The first world market could decide to impose conditions on the rare earth metals it uses of it wants to. Those with control of the resources will comply or lose their market. Price goes up driving alternatives to be found. As a society we are not interested in solving mining issues in Africa though so we won’t bother.

I’m not sure what you mean by most renewables are natural gas plays?
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Old 07-11-2021, 10:00 PM   #31
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If we continue our high energy lifestyles we’ll just shift the problem from one thing to another. Moving off carbon is the first priority but complete electrification has its own collateral damage. We ultimately need to reduce our overall resource footprint for long term ecological and political stability.
This was ultimately my point. You can’t have 8-10B people with modern lifestyle and think we can overcome impact to earth. We can’t. Too many people bottom line.
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Old 07-11-2021, 10:03 PM   #32
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Currently a lot of the cobalt we get is used in oil refining, making of super alloys, etc. Most cobalt currently is used in consumer electronics too. Only a small fraction is mined by hand in the Congo and it is no longer sourced from these "artisinal mines" (though I'm sure it still goes on to some degree and finds it's way into the supply). Most battery manufacturers are starting to use low or zero cobalt materials for their batteries anyways.

As for mining the rest of the needed materials, there's bound to be some environmental impact, and that should be front of mind. Don't forget though, that the existential current problem is GHG emissions and we need to find ways to eliminate those.
Where does the rest of the cobalt come from? That is interesting. I literally just read a banking analysis like 2 months ago that said a huge portion of cobalt supply (I recall it being something insane like 70-80%) comes from West Africa. I’m not sure there’s a less stable region on Earth.
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Old 07-11-2021, 10:12 PM   #33
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Where does the rest of the cobalt come from? That is interesting. I literally just read a banking analysis like 2 months ago that said a huge portion of cobalt supply (I recall it being something insane like 70-80%) comes from West Africa. I’m not sure there’s a less stable region on Earth.
Yep most cobalt comes from Africa

Sheritt gets cobalt as a byproduct from it's nickel mine in Cuba - so not much better in the stability department
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Old 07-11-2021, 10:14 PM   #34
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Where does the rest of the cobalt come from? That is interesting. I literally just read a banking analysis like 2 months ago that said a huge portion of cobalt supply (I recall it being something insane like 70-80%) comes from West Africa. I’m not sure there’s a less stable region on Earth.
Most does come from that region, but the specific ethical issues in mining Cobalt in the DRC (child labour/slave labour) are from the "artisinal" mines in that region that are essentially front for organized crime. Less than 10% of the world's Cobalt is from these mines, and less than 20% of the cobalt mined is used in EVs.

Currently EV manufacturers are commited to transparent and ethical supply chains and we should hold them accountable to that in the same way we demand it for other industries like O&G, textiles, food and others.

https://pluginbc.ca/an-introduction-...es-and-cobalt/
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Old 07-11-2021, 10:18 PM   #35
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We have one but it's pretty underutilized.



More integration of the two grids would allow Alberta to have a base load of clean energy when the wind isn't blowing or the sun isnt shining. BC gets $$ from AB and lower cost solar/wind when energy is abundant.



It's a win win for both provinces.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5848042
The intertie might be undersized, but it's absolutely not underutilized.

The biggest problem right now is that the intertie tends to get hit by lightning, a lot. The last few under frequency events have been caused by the intertie tripping requiring the system operators to dump load to restore frequency.

The article you linked is spot on. I would add that it takes about 10 years to get a significant powerline approved and built. Add in the fact that a line to Site C would be an interprovincial undertaking, you now have the NEB process to deal with.
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Old 07-11-2021, 10:21 PM   #36
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I do. Work in the industry.

The biggest problem with renewables is dispatch.

I'm all for renewables, but they need to be spread out across the province to be of more use than they currently are.

A HVDC link to Site C is an absolute must. Mildly annoyed that the province hasn't started working on that yet.
Speaking of HDVC links - you're likely already aware of this project but I'll share the link for anyone who wants an interesting watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAv6GGDGeJM

Coles notes: Singapore to be powered by solar via Australian outback
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Old 07-11-2021, 10:24 PM   #37
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Speaking of HDVC links - you're likely already aware of this project but I'll share the link for anyone who wants an interesting watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAv6GGDGeJM

Coles notes: Singapore to be powered by solar via Australian outback
This project looks so freaking cool, but my head tells me the costs would just make this a complete non-starter. But the financial backers don't feel that way, so I guess we'll see
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Old 07-11-2021, 11:01 PM   #38
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I'm in modest agreement with you, however the current hydro in BC would need to ramp up substantially to look after alberta during low periods of solar/wind and AB would have to design our solar and wind capabilities to accommodate them.

Not an impossible task, it's reasonable but ambitious especially given the tenuous relationship the 2 provinces currently have. I also believe Kenney comes across as a redneck ######bag to BC and Horgan taking a hardline stance against anything AB wins him a lot of votes.
Alberta just seems to me to have the perfect balance of resource and know how to have a massive geothermal energy industry. Current technology makes this not cost effective, but I'm keeping my eyes out. All these people with drilling and geology expertise just sittin' on top a massive bunch of heat wondering how to generate electricity is to good to not work
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Old 07-12-2021, 04:11 AM   #39
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This project looks so freaking cool, but my head tells me the costs would just make this a complete non-starter. But the financial backers don't feel that way, so I guess we'll see
I think it's a complete scam that'll never get off the ground, given that Singapore already has cheaper electricity than Australia. The only money that will be made will by the corporate insiders and consultants that will skim off all the initial investor and government money.

And it makes no sense to go to Singapore, when the main eastern Australian grid struggles on a regular basis with electricity supply. Just today, spot prices exceeded A$1000/MWh in Queensland and New South Wales:



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A couple reasons why this spare capacity is low:

1) We see in the chart at the bottom right there is barely any wind generation across QLD and NSW together …

2) … and (naturally at this time during winter) no solar as well;

3) That’s on the back of ongoing outages of coal plant as discussed here before.

https://wattclarity.com.au/articles/...n-qld-and-nsw/
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Old 07-12-2021, 07:13 AM   #40
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Alberta just seems to me to have the perfect balance of resource and know how to have a massive geothermal energy industry. Current technology makes this not cost effective, but I'm keeping my eyes out. All these people with drilling and geology expertise just sittin' on top a massive bunch of heat wondering how to generate electricity is to good to not work
Does anyone have more knowledge of Drake Landing in Okotoks?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drak...olar_Community

Sunlight is the fuel and dirt is the battery. Can't get much greener or simpler and seems very effective. Scaling it up may not be possible unfortunately. I totally agree with you that geothermal seems like it has so much potential. Heating and cooling has got to be one of the largest demands of energy. If it could be done with geothermal, the load on electrical and natural gas grids would be greatly reduced to accommodate electric car charging and the like. And no rare earth metal batteries. So intriguing!
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