[Signing] Jets sign Bryan Little to extension (6 yrs, $5.291 mil AAV)

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

My apologies. I misread the post to which you were responding.


I do take some issue with this, however. Perhaps it is quibbling, but I would characterize the Flames centre depth as slightly above average at worst. Sean Monahan is at worst a slightly above average top-line centre, and Backlund is an exceptional second line centre. Round that out with Bennett, Stajan and the addition of Jankowski to that mix and I think that from top to bottom that sets the Flames in very good shape down the middle.

I really wish I could put you on ignore list or have the discipline to let your posts slide.

I think that you are ranking Monahan/Backlund to the past centres of the Flames and not the rest of the current league. Currently Monahan and Backlund are better than any Flames pair since 1994-95 Niewendyk/Riechel

Western Conference

Would not trade for Monahan /Backlund

Schieffle- Little
Johanssen – Fisher replaced by Bonino with Janrock a top 3C
Toews – Anisimov
Koivu – Staal
Kopitar – Carter
Getzlaff – Kesler- Rackell
Seguin – Spezza
Mackinnon – Duschene
McDavid- Draistl
Pavelski – Couture -Hertl (Thornton)

Might trade for Monahan /Backlund

Statsny – Schenn

Would trade for Mohahan/Backlund

Stephan- Dvorak
Horvat - Sedin
Shipachyov - Cody Eakin


Not that I really need to ask, but where am I wrong?

[Textcritic]

I had to read your post four times, but I think I follow what you are arguing here. As I understand it you are suggesting that I am badly over-rating the Flames' current centre depth, but in what follows you have drawn comparisons between top-two centres for several teams and top-three centres for others (Nashville, Anaheim, SJ, Vegas). Why not include Bennett in the Flames group? He is at worst a terrific third-line centre who very importantly sets the whole group closer to the top than the bottom.

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I think that you are ranking Monahan/Backlund to the past centres of the Flames and not the rest of the current league. Currently Monahan and Backlund are better than any Flames pair since 1994-95 Niewendyk/Riechel



Western Conference



Would not trade for Monahan /Backlund



Schieffle- Little

Johanssen – Fisher replaced by Bonino with Janrock a top 3C

Toews – Anisimov

Koivu – Staal

Kopitar – Carter

Getzlaff – Kesler- Rackell

Seguin – Spezza

Mackinnon – Duschene

McDavid- Draistl

Pavelski – Couture -Hertl (Thornton)



Might trade for Monahan /Backlund



Statsny – Schenn



Would trade for Mohahan/Backlund



Stephan- Dvorak

Horvat - Sedin

Shipachyov - Cody Eakin





Not that I really need to ask, but where am I wrong?

Well, for starters, you have a bunch of players lined up at centre where they seldom play centre. I also think you overrate several of these groups when comparing them to the Flames. For example, MacKinnon and Landeskog are certainly not a better option, Stastny and Schenn are arguably not better, neither are Kopitar and Carter and Koivu and Staal—especially not if one goes three- or four-deep for every team including Calgary.



But the problem here is that when we start to make these position-by-position comparisons between teams, the dynamics of team construction make the exercise difficult or even pointless. Some centres are better point producers than others but are not as good overall by virtue of another player's 200 ft. game.



In the end I stand by my assertion—the Flames have above average centre depth. But this is actually all besides the fairly simple point that I have intended to make about the Flames' cap structure as it pertains to re-signing Backlund and Bennett in the future.

I really wish I could put you on ignore list or have the discipline to let your posts slide.

Well, you have clearly shown that you have no problem ignoring me. This is now the third time I have asked you a very simple question that you continue to refuse to answer. In this present response you have actually chosen to quote my post directed to another poster in order to avoid the prevailing question, but I am going to insist on repeating myself: "Can the Flames afford to pay $17.5–18.0 m for their top three centres as a group?"

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

No he's not.

To all the fans of other teams that visit this site please realize that the comments of some do not represent the majority of Flames fans. Plenty of us have a more grounded opinion of Flames players and realize that while Backlund is a good player Little is a better overall player.

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by robaur

Cmon guys. Little > Backlund.

And I'm the biggest Backlund fan.

Points aren't everything

Backlund was was a play driving monster last year, and was the few years before too just unnoticed

He is a much better player than Little, and little is underrated

[FBI]

Originally Posted by d_phaneuf

Points aren't everything

Backlund was was a play driving monster last year, and was the few years before too just unnoticed

He is a much better player than Little, and little is underrated

From a Canucks fan!

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Little > Backlund

Defense is a slight edge to Backs, but Little is a better offensive option. Not to mention, the guy could go RW with Monahan and Gaudreau if he had to.

Backlund > Little

Defense is a big edge to Backs. Little has ALWAYS played with Blake Wheeler and Andrew Ladd on his wings. For over six seasons those guys have been his linemates.

Backlund? Finally got decent wingers the last two seasons, with a rookie Sam Bennett and Frolik two seasons ago, and a rookie Matt Tkachuk and Frolik last season. In both those seasons Backlund has more goals and points than Little, although Little has missed 20 games in both seasons due to injury.

Backs linemates before that? Lance Bouma. David Jones. Mason Raymond. Joe Colborne. Lee Stempniak. Roman Cervenka. Blake Comeau. Quality of wingers is so far off, you almost cannot compare the two players.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Backlund > Little

Defense is a big edge to Backs. Little has ALWAYS played with Blake Wheeler and Andrew Ladd on his wings. For over six seasons those guys have been his linemates.

Backlund? Finally got decent wingers the last two seasons, with a rookie Sam Bennett and Frolik two seasons ago, and a rookie Matt Tkachuk and Frolik last season. In both those seasons Backlund has more goals and points than Little, although Little has missed 20 games in both seasons due to injury.

Backs linemates before that? Lance Bouma. David Jones. Mason Raymond. Joe Colborne. Lee Stempniak. Roman Cervenka. Blake Comeau. Quality of wingers is so far off, you almost cannot compare the two players.

Little played with Laine and Ehlers just this season and they were great. Ladd got removed from Little and immediately went from a 60 point winger to a 30 point winger, in 1 season. When all of Little's wingers are amazing, yet his team sucks, and his most played linemate ends up being a dud when removed from him, maybe that means Little makes his linemates better...


And Backlund was given time with Iginla and friends during the same time that you're listing Comeau and Bouma. He just never gelled. There was a reason that they converted Comeau to center to play with Iginla, and that's because Backlund (at the time) was not at all capable of top 6 duties.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Little played with Laine and Ehlers just this season and they were great. Ladd got removed from Little and immediately went from a 60 point winger to a 30 point winger, in 1 season. When all of Little's wingers are amazing, yet his team sucks, and his most played linemate ends up being a dud when removed from him, maybe that means Little makes his linemates better...


And Backlund was given time with Iginla and friends during the same time that you're listing Comeau and Bouma. He just never gelled. There was a reason that they converted Comeau to center to play with Iginla, and that's because Backlund (at the time) was not at all capable of top 6 duties.

Are you trying to say Laine and Ehlers are not great players?

Not sure what you're talking about.

Comeau was converted to center to play with Iginla? I certainly do not remember that.

I think Little is a good player. I just think Backlund is much more complete and I would much rather have him on my team.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Are you trying to say Laine and Ehlers are not great players?

Not sure what you're talking about.

Comeau was converted to center to play with Iginla? I certainly do not remember that.

I think Little is a good player. I just think Backlund is much more complete and I would much rather have him on my team.

I think both players are different enough from one another in how they play the game that it is difficult to compare them.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Are you trying to say Laine and Ehlers are not great players?

No, I'm saying they haven't suffered playing with Little. "Blaming" Little for having good linemates is a weak excuse, especially when we've seen what happened to Ladd away from Little. Everyone who plays with Little plays their best, that's what good centers do. And he's been consistently doing it for years. It doesn't matter if it was Wheeler (career year), Ladd (career year), Ehlers (career year, in his short career), Laine (exceptional rookie year), Perreault, it doesn't matter. They all looked at their best with Little.

Backlund had good wingers on his teams as well. Iginla at his near peak. Tanguay when he was a magician. Hudler during his rise. Glencross and Bourque when they weren't ass. The problem was Backlund rarely gelled with any of them and wasn't consistent enough when he was put into a top 6 role until Frolik came about. It's not like he had much center depth to complete with, yet he still found himself playing with the Comeaus and Boumas of the world because he sucked in the top 6. That's not the case today, but it was a couple years ago.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I had to read your post four times, but I think I follow what you are arguing here. As I understand it you are suggesting that I am badly over-rating the Flames' current centre depth, but in what follows you have drawn comparisons between top-two centres for several teams and top-three centres for others (Nashville, Anaheim, SJ, Vegas). Why not include Bennett in the Flames group? He is at worst a terrific third-line centre who very importantly sets the whole group closer to the top than the bottom.





Well, for starters, you have a bunch of players lined up at centre where they seldom play centre. I also think you overrate several of these groups when comparing them to the Flames. For example, MacKinnon and Landeskog are certainly not a better option, Stastny and Schenn are arguably not better, neither are Kopitar and Carter and Koivu and Staal—especially not if one goes three- or four-deep for every team including Calgary.



But the problem here is that when we start to make these position-by-position comparisons between teams, the dynamics of team construction make the exercise difficult or even pointless. Some centres are better point producers than others but are not as good overall by virtue of another player's 200 ft. game.



In the end I stand by my assertion—the Flames have above average centre depth. But this is actually all besides the fairly simple point that I have intended to make about the Flames' cap structure as it pertains to re-signing Backlund and Bennett in the future.





Well, you have clearly shown that you have no problem ignoring me. This is now the third time I have asked you a very simple question that you continue to refuse to answer. In this present response you have actually chosen to quote my post directed to another poster in order to avoid the prevailing question, but I am going to insist on repeating myself: "Can the Flames afford to pay $17.5–18.0 m for their top three centres as a group?"

Do yo even follow any other team than the Flames?

Landeskog plays on Duchense line. Face offs Duchense 1049 Landeskog 125.

If the Flames were playing LA or Minnesota in a playoff series you seriously think that the Flames would have an advantage on the top 2 lines Centres? It would be a victory for Monahan and Backlund to play them even.



Sorry I didn't answer your question. Sure the Flames can pay the top 3 centres 18 M.... and be a playoff bubble team. They would have to continue to play a "value" journeyman in Goal and a AHL calibre backup and dump a top 5 defenseman. Also they have to be prepared to accept the draft picks if Tkachuk builds on his first year.

The reason I listed 3 centers in some cases because the #3 is a Backlund level player.

also when you looked at my list you changed from

Sean Monahan is at worst a slightly above average top-line centre, and Backlund is an exceptional second line centre.

to

Why not include Bennett in the Flames group? He is at worst a terrific third-line centre who very importantly sets the whole group closer to the top than the bottom.

basically conceding that Monahan and Backlund are closer to the bottom when compared to the guys they should match up against.

[PegCityFlamesFan]

Having watched Little since the Jets have been back and seeing Backlund play for the Flames before then and during they both have a pretty good skill set. I do think Little holds the edge, but the injuries up until last year concerned me. He is definitely a 2nd line center and makes the players around him better. I think it's a solid contract, and will be well worth it going forward... as long as he keeps up the health piece.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

...Sorry I didn't answer your question. Sure the Flames can pay the top 3 centres 18 M.... and be a playoff bubble team. They would have to continue to play a "value" journeyman in Goal and a AHL calibre backup and dump a top 5 defenseman. Also they have to be prepared to accept the draft picks if Tkachuk builds on his first year...

So, several other teams can afford to pay in the ballpark of $18 m or more for their top three centres, but the Flames cannot without gutting the rest of their team? How does that work?

My point has been limited to to this question, and it was based on your assertion that the Flames must necessarily choose between Backlund and Bennett. They do not. But moreover, I am now also curious in the light of your assertion that I have been advocating for "the Oilers model" what you think that is, and how my proposal to budget $18.0 m for the Flames' top-three centres aligns with it.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Do yo even follow any other team than the Flames?

Landeskog plays on Duchense line. Face offs Duchense 1049 Landeskog 125.

Well I sure as hell do not watch a lot of Colorado Avalanche games. Why would I? They are awful and given the returns it seems dubious to suggest that they have anything on the Flames—centre depth or otherwise.

If the Flames were playing LA or Minnesota in a playoff series you seriously think that the Flames would have an advantage on the top 2 lines Centres? It would be a victory for Monahan and Backlund to play them even.

Given both LA's and Minnesota's supposed dominance, I am surprised to see how badly they struggled to easily vanquish the Flames in their eight meetings this past season. The Kings managed two wins in their five games, but they were also unable to overtake their Pacific Division rivals and missed the playoffs altogether. Minnesota made the playoffs, but were 0-3 against the Flames in their games last year.

Yeah, I don't think either team has much of an advantage.

...The reason I listed 3 centers in some cases because the #3 is a Backlund level player.

How do you figure?

also when you looked at my list you changed from

to

basically conceding that Monahan and Backlund are closer to the bottom when compared to the guys they should match up against.

I concede nothing. My comments about Monahan and Backlund were directed at another poster, and I already admitted that I was quibbling as to the difference between being at best or at worst "slightly above average."

[jammies]

Why are you arguing with ricardow like he's a rational human being?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by jammies

Why are you arguing with ricardow like he's a rational human being?

Because I feel bad that he cannot put me on ignore.

...that and it beats the hell out of the arena threads.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

No, I'm saying they haven't suffered playing with Little. "Blaming" Little for having good linemates is a weak excuse, especially when we've seen what happened to Ladd away from Little. Everyone who plays with Little plays their best, that's what good centers do. And he's been consistently doing it for years. It doesn't matter if it was Wheeler (career year), Ladd (career year), Ehlers (career year, in his short career), Laine (exceptional rookie year), Perreault, it doesn't matter. They all looked at their best with Little.

Backlund had good wingers on his teams as well. Iginla at his near peak. Tanguay when he was a magician. Hudler during his rise. Glencross and Bourque when they weren't ass. The problem was Backlund rarely gelled with any of them and wasn't consistent enough when he was put into a top 6 role until Frolik came about. It's not like he had much center depth to complete with, yet he still found himself playing with the Comeaus and Boumas of the world because he sucked in the top 6. That's not the case today, but it was a couple years ago.

Are you trying to infer that Backlund doesn't make those around him better?

Go ask scrubs Lance Bouma and Joe Colborne where their last contracts came from. Listen to what Matthew Tkachuk and Micheal Frolik have to say about Backlund.

Also are you trying to tell me Backlund played any significant time with Iginla or Tanguay? Because that's simply not true.

Regardless, today Mikael Backlund is a very valuable piece of the Calgary Flames that has earned himself a nice, long term contract and there is no way I would trade him for Bryan Little, even though I think Little is a good player. It looks like the Jets just signed Little to a good contract. (Especially if he can get back to playing a full season)

You and others obviously disagree, but don't try to make stuff up and pass it off as fact to make your point look that much better.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Also are you trying to tell me Backlund played any significant time with Iginla or Tanguay? Because that's simply not true.

No, I did not say that. I said he had good wingers on his team, and insinuated that he didn't have the opportunity to play significant time with because he sucked playing with them. The Flames literally converted Comeau to play with Iginla at one point because of how brutal the Flames centers were, and that included Backlund. He's improved since then, the same way Russian Giordano isn't as good as Captain Gio. But it's changing history to say that Backlund never had good teammates and the opportunity to play with them, he had ####ty linemates because he wasn't good enough to play with the good players. You're the one who wanted to bring up linemates into trying to downplay Little. But the reason Backlund was playing with third and fourth line players was because he was a third and fourth line center until recently.

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

You and others obviously disagree, but don't try to make stuff up and pass it off as fact to make your point look that much better.

What did I make up? Your first post was to say how Little ALWAYS (your emphasis) played with Wheeler and Ladd, and I corrected you saying he played with Laine and Ehlers just this season. I contended that Little's linemates have benefited from playing with him. Considering the career years they've had while he was a center or on their lines, I doubt you'll see them disagree. It's stupid to bring up linemates as some sort of argument against Little when everyone who plays with Little plays at their best. And especially comical given the absolute demise of Ladd right now.

[Vulcan]

Here's an article about Backlund.

As for his hockey wish list, Backlund will be hoping to duplicate his strong 2016-17 season, while playing his part in helping the Flames avoid a repeat of their Stanley Cup Playoffs disappointment.
Backlund put up impressive numbers across the board in his most recent campaign, netting career-high marks in goals (22), assists (31), points (53), power-play goals (seven) and game-winning goals (seven).
The versatile centreman was acknowledged for his stellar defensive play when he finished fourth in balloting for the Frank J. Selke award given to the forward ‘who best excels in the defensive aspects of the game.
That’s the good.

http://www.nhlpa.com/news/backlund-r...ressive-season

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

So, several other teams can afford to pay in the ballpark of $18 m or more for their top three centres, but the Flames cannot without gutting the rest of their team? How does that work?

My point has been limited to to this question, and it was based on your assertion that the Flames must necessarily choose between Backlund and Bennett. They do not. But moreover, I am now also curious in the light of your assertion that I have been advocating for "the Oilers model" what you think that is, and how my proposal to budget $18.0 m for the Flames' top-three centres aligns with it.

The Ducks can afford to pay their top 3 centres 18M because:

1) They drafted Gibson where the Flames drafted Gillies and have an elite goalie they only have to pay 2.3M .. ie they got lucky in the Draft The Flames have a journeyman goalie that Arizona were willing to pay over a million a year not to play with them. Maybe the Flames can find an elite goalie on the cheap but that hasn't been working out well.

2) They packaged their contract mistake (Stoner) with Theodore to dump salary. The Flames could do the same with Brouwer for instance but Anderssen/ Kylingyon /Valimaki are not as valuable an asset as Theodore. ie the Ducks had to do some gutting of their team to accommodate Rackell

3) the Ducks pay their 5/6 d-men (Manson Beauchiem) a combined 1.8M. The Flames felt they needed Stone as a long term #5 and as a result the Flames 5-6 for the next 3 years will be over 4M.

-----------

Crosby -Malkin - the team is built around them


-----------

Edmonton will be a huge mess with gutting happening on a regular basis.

Would be good for the Flames to have a spare 7-8 M in cap space for Talbot in 2019-20


the Flames have 9 core players signed for at least until they have to sign Bennett again. 9 for 46M If they were to extend Backlund at 5 x6 over that period they would have 10 players at 51M ... no Bennett or Tkachuk

cap is currently at 75 by that time say 80. 29 M for 11 Skaters and 2 goalies.

So yes the Flames are not in a position to spend 18M on 3 centres