2019/2020 Trade Speculation and Rumors 2.0

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

One issue I would have there is the extra $4M cap hit.



Gaudreau @6.75 > Marner @10.9

Are you ignoring talent and term?

[TheScorpion]

I just don't see at all how Marner is more talented than Johnny. I don't see it. And I'd rather have less term on that bloated, horrifying contract that takes Mitch straight to UFA.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I just don't see at all how Marner is more talented than Johnny. I don't see it. And I'd rather have less term on that bloated, horrifying contract that takes Mitch straight to UFA.

Marner is as talented offensively and is underrated defensively. Contracts considered, you take Johnny every day of the weak.... but thats nothing against Marner, just the worst RFA signing GM in the league.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by New Era

Some good examples there and some bad ones. Injuries came in to play for a lot of these guys, but yes, age does affect everyone. It does affect everyone differently. You can look at the Bruins for an example.



Voracek is only one component of the trade. Frost and Myers are actually the bigger parts and the reason for eating the big salary. Voracek is going to be a great addition, and will be so for probably the length of his contract, bit Frost and Myers fill very important slots in the lineup for now and the long term.

The Flames do not need to eat a big contract to get Frost and Myers for Gaudreau. Johnny is easily worth those 2 plus more without having to take an overpaid player (albeit a good one).

I would rather target a deal of Zacha, 7th pick and Ty Smith than the one you are proposing and I think it is a realistic return.

Myers is more proven than Smith but Smith is expansion draft exempt and has top 4 upside.

Zacha and Frost are a wash for me. Zacha is older but put up 32pts in 65 games just turned 23, former 6th overall pick (similar situation when we picked up Lindholm). He has 2 more years at $2.25M so a cheap 3C with 2C upside.

7th pick >> Voracek.
This deal frees up 4.5M to sign Hall and also add the top prospect to the organization. This draft is deep in the top 10 and the Flames would get a player that is likely only a year away from being on the team.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I just don't see at all how Marner is more talented than Johnny. I don't see it. And I'd rather have less term on that bloated, horrifying contract that takes Mitch straight to UFA.

Really? I'm not saying its leaps and bounds but I take Marner any day even with contracts. If 13 had 5 years left it would be different.

Marner is worth the percentage of the cap he's being paid. JG only has 2 years left.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

Marner is as talented offensively and is underrated defensively. Contracts considered, you take Johnny every day of the weak.... but thats nothing against Marner, just the worst RFA signing GM in the league.

Marner had Dubas as soon as Dubas signed Matthews. Marner is awesome.

[MrMike]

Tavares is going no where.
Matthews is going no where.
I believe its an avenue they will look at.

Marner is also a RW and shoots R.

Would you rather somehow get Marner or sign Barzal to a RFA offer around the same price with lets say same aquisition cost?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by New Era

Why? Why is this likely. All those who have been saying this have yet to put forth any reason to suggest this is likely. None. Just some crazy belief that because a player hits a certain age that the wheels fall off. Yet this is the same fan base that talks about Giordano playing into his 40s and held the same belief about Iginla when he was here. Why would a player that is showing no signs of slowing down all of a sudden fall apart at age 32 or 33? This makes no sense. If this was true Giordano would not have won a Norris, he would have been out of the game.

Why is it likely? Because the vast majority of offensive players slow down by age 33. Voracek isn't worth $8.25M now, never mind at age 33 and 34.

Well that's just plain stupid. Seriously. You're cutting your nose off to spite your face. That's how you guarantee that your team goes to hell and has to suffer through a painful rebuild. Don't pull an Iginla all over again. Recognize how to maximize assets and make a deal. Get the best assets available and move on.

Having another anchor contract, and a huge one at $8.25M (making him the highest paid player on the team) is how you guarantee that your team goes to hell.

But you just keep on calling opinions that differ from yours stupid, because that will certainly strengthen your case.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by MrMike

Tavares is going no where.
Matthews is going no where.
I believe its an avenue they will look at.

Marner is also a RW and shoots R.

Would you rather somehow get Marner or sign Barzal to a RFA offer around the same price with lets say same aquisition cost?

I'm partial towards centers, but with roughly the same cap hit and acquisition cost I think I'd take Marner.

Damn that's a tough one.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by MrMike

Tavares is going no where.
Matthews is going no where.
I believe its an avenue they will look at.

Marner is also a RW and shoots R.

Would you rather somehow get Marner or sign Barzal to a RFA offer around the same price with lets say same aquisition cost?

I think you can take advantage of Toronto's cap situation and get Marner cheaper than having to offer sheet Barzal.

I feel like a deal could work out. Imagine having Tkachuk, Lindholm, and Marner on the same line. Marner and Tkachuk already have the London Knights connection, top that off with Lindholm >> Dvorak and you've got yourself a solid line.

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Johnny Gaudreau, Sam Bennett, Oliver Kylington for Travis Konecny, Morgan Frost, Phillipe Myers
Mark Jankowski, Matthew Phillips for Josh Anderson

Taylor Hall @ 7 x $8,000,000 AAV
Jan Ruuta @ 1 x $900,000 AAV
Laurent Brossoit @ 1 x $900,000 AAV
Zac Rinaldo @ 1 x $750,000 AAV
Michael Stone @ 1 x $750,000 AAV

Josh Anderson @ 2 x $2,250,000 AAV
Phillipe Myers @ 2 x $2,250,000 AAV
Andrew Mangiapane @ 2 x $2,000,000 AAV
Glenn Gawdin @ 1 x $787,500 AAV

Taylor Hall - Sean Monahan - Elias Lindholm
Matt Tkachuk - Morgan Frost - Travis Konecny
Mangiapane - Mikael Backlund - Josh Anderson
Milan Lucic - Derek Ryan - Dillon Dube

Zac Rinaldo, Glenn Gawdin

Mark Giordano - Rasmus Andersson
Noah Hanifin - Phillipe Myers
Jusso Valimaki - Jan Ruuta

Michael Stone

David Rittich
Laurent Brossoit

$1,260,001 remaining cap space

I'm doubtful the Flyers would move Konecny but for Johnny Gaudreau?? Maybe, if you drop Kylington and Myers? Maybe.....

Fun to look at though.

That’s a solid roster. But I would ship Ryan out for a draft pick and spend the cap savings on a better backup goalie.

[TheScorpion]

With $1.2 million remaining you could spend $1.5 million on a guy like Dell and not break a sweat.

Don't trade Ryan. Look to extend him for less money. He's this team's Matt Cullen.

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

With $1.2 million remaining you could spend $1.5 million on a guy like Dell and not break a sweat.

Don't trade Ryan. Look to extend him for less money. He's this team's Matt Cullen.

I don’t see what you see in him. I’d prefer my bottom six centres to have size and the ability to grind hard like you need in the playoffs. I honestly don’t want him on the team at his cap hit.

[Sandman]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The Flames do not need to eat a big contract to get Frost and Myers for Gaudreau. Johnny is easily worth those 2 plus more without having to take an overpaid player (albeit a good one).

I would rather target a deal of Zacha, 7th pick and Ty Smith than the one you are proposing and I think it is a realistic return.

Myers is more proven than Smith but Smith is expansion draft exempt and has top 4 upside.

Zacha and Frost are a wash for me. Zacha is older but put up 32pts in 65 games just turned 23, former 6th overall pick (similar situation when we picked up Lindholm). He has 2 more years at $2.25M so a cheap 3C with 2C upside.

7th pick >> Voracek.
This deal frees up 4.5M to sign Hall and also add the top prospect to the organization. This draft is deep in the top 10 and the Flames would get a player that is likely only a year away from being on the team.

I would be on board with that package. Zacha is big and physical, and is just starting to scratch the surface of his potential. The seventh overall pick in this year's draft could very well be a player who plays in the NHL as early as next year, and we would still have our own.Ty Smith is a beauty as well.

I also want to say that I would love it if Nylander were to be traded here. He's got speed and skill to burn, he's a RW, and his 200 ft game has come a long way. He's a Calgary boy too, lol!

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

I think you can take advantage of Toronto's cap situation and get Marner cheaper than having to offer sheet Barzal.

I feel like a deal could work out. Imagine having Tkachuk, Lindholm, and Marner on the same line. Marner and Tkachuk already have the London Knights connection, top that off with Lindholm >> Dvorak and you've got yourself a solid line.

I imagine Gaudreau being used to recoup cap space and picks.

Lindholm loses his top RW position,

Moves to Second line Center.

Tkachuk finally gets top line LW position.

If we get a bonafide top line RW we also get an amazing second line Center and an amazing third line center.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by flamesgod

I don’t see what you see in him. I’d prefer my bottom six centres to have size and the ability to grind hard like you need in the playoffs. I honestly don’t want him on the team at his cap hit.

You don't think Ryan can grind? That's like all he does...

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

I think you can take advantage of Toronto's cap situation and get Marner cheaper than having to offer sheet Barzal.

I feel like a deal could work out. Imagine having Tkachuk, Lindholm, and Marner on the same line. Marner and Tkachuk already have the London Knights connection, top that off with Lindholm >> Dvorak and you've got yourself a solid line.

Gaudreau to Philly -> Futures to Toronto -> Marner to CGY

Lucic becomes allergic to hockey equipment so the Flames still sign Hall

Tkachuk - Monahan - Marner
Hall - Lindholm - Mangiapane

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Gaudreau to Philly -> Futures to Toronto -> Marner to CGY

Lucic becomes allergic to hockey equipment so the Flames still sign Hall

Tkachuk - Monahan - Marner
Hall - Lindholm - Mangiapane

We just think so much alike I love it.

I mean it all makes sense, as long as we can set up some sort of charity gallery with Hossa and Lucic to make it look possible.

I kid but I think Gaudreau is the same if not worth more right this offseason as Marner because of cap hit and which teams can accept it.

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

You don't think Ryan can grind? That's like all he does...

I mean being able to dish out physicality and take it. He isn’t strong on the puck or particularly good down low. If you mean he has good positioning and isn’t afraid to block shots, I agree with you. He’s good at that.
He’s 33, 34 when his contract expires. Trade him for a pick.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The Flames do not need to eat a big contract to get Frost and Myers for Gaudreau. Johnny is easily worth those 2 plus more without having to take an overpaid player (albeit a good one).

Salary cap says otherwise. You have to look at the other needs of teams as well. You just can't arbitrarily throw out players and draft picks you want and think the team is going to cough them up. There has to be benefit for the other team as well. A big part of that is having the traded contracts balance out. Teams that don't spend to the cap do so because of an internal budget. Those teams are unlikely to spend beyond that number even if they are getting a star player for magic beans. They have to ship out dollars as well.

I would rather target a deal of Zacha, 7th pick and Ty Smith than the one you are proposing and I think it is a realistic return.

I don't think Treliving goes near that. The best guaranteed asset the Flames back is a third line center. They would then be taking back two future players. Love Smith's numbers, but is an undersized offensive defenseman what the Flames need? Is another lottery ticket? Do they want to wait the two to three years for both players to develop? I don't think so and that makes the deal worse. A deal for players that aren't ready to play right now is pressing pause and wasting the great contracts they have in Lindholm, Monahan, Tkachuk, and Hanafin.

Myers is more proven than Smith but Smith is expansion draft exempt and has top 4 upside.

That is a good point. The expansion draft is a concern, but the Flames have the slots to protect Myers so long as they don't do something silly and play Valimaki this year.

Zacha and Frost are a wash for me. Zacha is older but put up 32pts in 65 games just turned 23, former 6th overall pick (similar situation when we picked up Lindholm). He has 2 more years at $2.25M so a cheap 3C with 2C upside.

Don't agree here. Frost has sky rocketed as a prospect. He has way more potential and actually showing it. This pass first center has first line talent. The only question is does he have the size to play at that level? I think he does. I love Zacha's size and style of play, but I see him as a third line center. A damn good one, but a third line center. In a couple years I believe Frost will be a player that teams will wonder why they didn't jump on him earlier in his draft year. There are already lots saying that.

7th pick >> Voracek.

Yes and no. It depends on the team's plan. If the plan is to try and be better next season, then the 7th doesn't help that. If you know you have to eat a salary similar to Gaudreau's to get the assets you want, then it is a good salary to eat because it also addresses the need up front. If the goal is to make the team better long term, then yes, that 7th over all pick is likely going to have greater value. Especially if there is a player in that range the Flames are in love with. The big thing with that pick is that it has to be a home run. It can't be another Sam Bennett. I'm not confident this team can go to the draft table and come away with that home run, which is why I hope they stay away from draft picks. The pro scouts appear to do a better job than the amateur scouts.

This deal frees up 4.5M to sign Hall and also add the top prospect to the organization. This draft is deep in the top 10 and the Flames would get a player that is likely only a year away from being on the team.

MAYBE being one year away from making the team. Then how long until that player can actually contribute? There's a difference between making the team and being the player the team needs him to be.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Why is it likely? Because the vast majority of offensive players slow down by age 33. Voracek isn't worth $8.25M now, never mind at age 33 and 34.

I agree that Voracek is over paid. I think he's a $6M player and will be for the remainder of this contract. I disagree he's going to fall off a cliff. Older players tend to hit the wall after they suffer injuries. Voracek has been remarkably durable. I don't see the big decline coming. Plus, he's a setup man which traditionally extends a players career even as they lose their wheels.

Having another anchor contract, and a huge one at $8.25M (making him the highest paid player on the team) is how you guarantee that your team goes to hell.

Disagree. All teams have bad contracts. The secret to the bad contracts is surrounding them with good contracts. This is where Treliving comes in. By grabbing two high quality young players along with that big contract Treliving has the opportunity to negotiate Lindholm/Hanafin deals and get these guys in the mix to counter balance the contracts. Plus, the Flames would be losing a contract that is over paid as well, so things hopefully wash out in the long run.

But you just keep on calling opinions that differ from yours stupid, because that will certainly strengthen your case.

Sorry man, you said something stupid. Own it. Saying that you would rather Gaudreau walked away for nothing than make a trade for two really good young players and eat a slightly over paid contract to fill a big hole on the team is stupid. Again, its cutting off your nose to spite your face. You don't allow your best assets to leave for nothing. You just don't.

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Don't trade Ryan. Look to extend him for less money. He's this team's Matt Cullen.

Agreed. Ryan provides flexibility in the line up and is worth retaining. Utility players like this are very valuable at the right contract. But you do have to worry about his age. I hear at age 33 players turn into pumpkins, so the Flames better check for ripening.