Your Opinion- Ticket Sales on CP

[ST20]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

Throughout this thread, and in the other threads where this issue has been debated, several people keep stating that if you allow tickets above face value, that scalpers will invade CP and the ticket exchange will be polluted with them. Is there any evidence this will happen? Any? Has this happened on another site that used to allow face value, then changed to unlimited, and now all the scalpers are there? If so, which site is it? Further along these lines, if scalpers are posting here to make a profit, and the prices are high, it doesn't mean you have to buy them. If scalpers do post here, that means the supply of tickets is higher, which, if economics has taught me anything, should lower the price of tickets. Of all the arguments against selling above face value on CP, saying that scalpers will flood the forum is the 2nd worst. The worst reason is that it's immoral and it cuts out real fans.

My reason for allowing tickets to be sold above face value is pretty simple. Money. Here is one of my posts from September:

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...1&postcount=54

I think if you allow CP members to sell tickets over face value in round one of this year's playoffs, you'd find out pretty quickly if there was a problem or not. If it works as I believe it will, then you can continue letting CP members sell above face value. If it goes the opposite way, then you've only allowed it for a maximum of four games, and the entire debate can be put to rest. If that happens I will unequivocally state I was wrong, and I'll never bring up the topic again. I think that is a very minimal amount of risk to find out the answer.

Buyers still have to be willing to pay what the seller is offering in a free market. If the buyers don't want to pay those prices, the prices will come down. Mods can find out if there are a rash of new sign ups. In calendar 2019 there have only been 39 new sign ups at CP. Only two of those sign ups have over 20 posts since being here. The rest are likely just mmf's new accounts he's trying to get through. If all of a sudden that number jumps to 100 sign ups, and they all start listing in the ticket exchange, then there is a problem. You could also say you can't post in the ticket exchange unless you meet all the current criteria, plus have been a member since at least March 1, 2019. This way any scalpers that want in on this year can't do so. There are so many ways to quell the fears being posted about.

Great post. It's logical and based on math and economics. It feels like there are a lot of posters hiding behind the guise of community thinking that it'll drive down ticket prices. They are at the best misguided and at the worst just being greedy (not realizing it doesn't work because 99 percent of sellers aren't here to subsidize their costs).

I like the idea of opening it up for any period of time. If we see that the community is being hurt then we could easily go back to the old rules. However, I would rather we do it next year and not for this playoffs for a few reasons:

1. All playoff games will be expensive and they'll just point at these "raised" prices as proof sellers are gauging buyers without even checking what the prices will be on StubHub or TM (after fees and taxes - just wait until people see the fees on a 200 dollar ticket)
2. Doing it during the regular season will make it wildly obvious that 90 percent of the games don't even get near face value which will defeat the whole price gauging argument
3. To be a little vindictive by limiting screwing CP out of playoff tickets at a more than reasonable price lol jk... I think

In regards to 3, it would be an interesting excercise to post the fees relates to every single section for resale tickets during the playoff run. It'll give people an idea of how much they would've saved. I won't hide that sellers may eventually try to raise prices to eat away at some of the taxes and fees savings from the buyer but this is limited by the fact that the buyer will just go elsewhere whether to StubHub or TM or to another CP seller. I think it'll settle somewhere where both parties are getting a piece of those savings - and this ONLY for popular games. Sellers will continue to eat losses on games against non-popular opponents.

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

But that logic applies to all secondary markets as well.

Supply/demand are not the same as profit margin. You guys are conflating the two.

Not at all, but in this scenario there is a direct correlation between the two. Smart sellers will look at the supply and make sure they are the best price to make sure they don't leave the dance alone. Cash in hand is better than the alternative

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by theslymonkey

Not at all, but in this scenario there is a direct correlation between the two. Smart sellers will look at the supply and make sure they are the best price to make sure they don't leave the dance alone. Cash in hand is better than the alternative

Smart sellers on Stubhub will do the same. The equilibrium price will be reached on both sites, the difference is who keeps the money.

It’ll mean sellers will prefer to sell on CP. It will not affect how much buyers are willing to pay.

Now, it could potentially lower the price sellers are willing to accept because of their increased profit margin, but there is no incentive to price lower as long as the demand is there.

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Smart sellers on Stubhub will do the same. The equilibrium price will be reached on both sites, the difference is who keeps the money.

It’ll mean sellers will prefer to sell on CP. It will not affect how much buyers are willing to pay.

Now, it could potentially lower the price sellers are willing to accept because of their increased profit margin, but there is no incentive to price lower as long as the demand is there.

Isn't that the point? Find a point where sellers are willing to accept and buyers are willing to pay? Where that point is will be variable, but the fees will get split somewhere in the middle. Regardless, it will stay out of the hands of Stubhub and Ticketmaster.

[ST20]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Smart sellers on Stubhub will do the same. The equilibrium price will be reached on both sites, the difference is who keeps the money.

It’ll mean sellers will prefer to sell on CP. It will not affect how much buyers are willing to pay.

Now, it could potentially lower the price sellers are willing to accept because of their increased profit margin, but there is no incentive to price lower as long as the demand is there.

Have you sold on StubHub? They take a pretty big cut out of your profit. Smart sellers sell where they get the biggest cut. I've sold big games on CP for face or a little less than face because although I could post it for higher than face elsewhere I would actually take home less than selling for below or near face on CP.

You're exactly right. The beauty is that a buyer will never pay more then they want to because they can refuse to buy. As a buyer I'm not sure why they wouldn't want more tickets available for a high demand game. That just means a lower price for the buyer or am I missing something?

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

Throughout this thread, and in the other threads where this issue has been debated, several people keep stating that if you allow tickets above face value, that scalpers will invade CP and the ticket exchange will be polluted with them. Is there any evidence this will happen? Any? Has this happened on another site that used to allow face value, then changed to unlimited, and now all the scalpers are there? If so, which site is it? Further along these lines, if scalpers are posting here to make a profit, and the prices are high, it doesn't mean you have to buy them. If scalpers do post here, that means the supply of tickets is higher, which, if economics has taught me anything, should lower the price of tickets. Of all the arguments against selling above face value on CP, saying that scalpers will flood the forum is the 2nd worst. The worst reason is that it's immoral and it cuts out real fans.

My reason for allowing tickets to be sold above face value is pretty simple. Money. Here is one of my posts from September:

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...1&postcount=54

I think if you allow CP members to sell tickets over face value in round one of this year's playoffs, you'd find out pretty quickly if there was a problem or not. If it works as I believe it will, then you can continue letting CP members sell above face value. If it goes the opposite way, then you've only allowed it for a maximum of four games, and the entire debate can be put to rest. If that happens I will unequivocally state I was wrong, and I'll never bring up the topic again. I think that is a very minimal amount of risk to find out the answer.

Buyers still have to be willing to pay what the seller is offering in a free market. If the buyers don't want to pay those prices, the prices will come down. Mods can find out if there are a rash of new sign ups. In calendar 2019 there have only been 39 new sign ups at CP. Only two of those sign ups have over 20 posts since being here. The rest are likely just mmf's new accounts he's trying to get through. If all of a sudden that number jumps to 100 sign ups, and they all start listing in the ticket exchange, then there is a problem. You could also say you can't post in the ticket exchange unless you meet all the current criteria, plus have been a member since at least March 1, 2019. This way any scalpers that want in on this year can't do so. There are so many ways to quell the fears being posted about.

I guess the classic example of a site which previously sold tickets at reasonable prices before scalping was legal, and no longer does, would be Ticketmaster itself.

With respect to trying unrestricted pricing for one round, the problem would be that issues would be more likely to arise the longer the Flames' playoff run lasts, both due to how much premium would be attached to later rounds, and to how much time has passed since the change in rules.

Having a join date set to limit scalpers might help this year, but not in the future.

Requiring sellers to provide the moderators proof of ownership of season tickets to post on the subforum would eliminate scalpers, but may have issues regarding privacy and extra work for mods. I would personally have no objection to sellers charging whatever they wanted if they had provided proof of ST ownership for the current season to CP.

Anyway, I don't plan to post further on this thread, because I have had good experiences with sellers here and don't want to annoy anyone, and I don't mind paying a bit of a premium on premium games. If I had a choice to pay the same amount here or on StubHub, I would buy here every time.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by ST20

Have you sold on StubHub? They take a pretty big cut out of your profit. Smart sellers sell where they get the biggest cut. I've sold big games on CP for face or a little less than face because although I could post it for higher than face elsewhere I would actually take home less than selling for below or near face on CP.

Your exactly right the beauty is that a buyer will never pay more then they want to because they can refuse to buy. As a buyer I'm not sure why they wouldn't want more tickets available for a high demand game. That just means a lower price for the buyer or am I missing something?

Ok but now you’ve just provided proof of what I said earlier, the system already works, so why change?

As for the second part, you’re falling into the same issue I raised earlier. Everyone agrees that supply and demand set the price but you’re also trying to say that higher profit margins for sellers will somehow lower prices without lower demand. It makes no sense. That’s not how economics work.

[ST20]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Ok but now you’ve just provided proof of what I said earlier, the system already works, so why change?

As for the second part, you’re falling into the same issue I raised earlier. Everyone agrees that supply and demand set the price but you’re also trying to say that higher profit margins for sellers will somehow lower prices without lower demand. It makes no sense. That’s not how economics work.

How does the system work? You are saying that from the buyers perspective. Demand for tickets have been down in this economy, once the economy recovers these games will sell for much higher which would mean the benefit for selling on CP would no longer be there. The example I gave was for prices close to face value.

To your second point we are talking about games with high demand. It's already clearly established that low demand games won't even come into this conversation as prices are already low and that is the market price. However, for high demand games for which this thread is applicable and where there are more people willing to buy; having access to more tickets will lower the price. That is how economics works.

It won't be lower than a market interfering policy of limiting the prices artficially low to an artificial "face value" but on the other side the beauty about being a seller is you don't have to sell it for a price that you don't want to. So in short the capped price will mean no tickets on CP because they can get a better price elsewhere. Feel free to correct my economics if you don't agree.

[GGG]

The reason the price drops on CP is risk.

Ticketmaster and stubhub act as security to ensure the transaction goes smoothly. On CP someone needs to send the tickets / Money first or meet up in a parking lot. So
The CP price will fluctuate between the seller take from TM and the Buyer price from TM.

The second reason for lower prices here is the lack of buyers. Both Kijiji and TM reach a larger number of buyers therefore price should be higher on those platforms. Kijiji prices may be a little lower due to the above mentioned risk.

With TM/Stubhub taking 25% there is plenty of room between the seller take and buyer price for a lower price incorporating the risk / inconvenience to be agreed to on CP

[ST20]

Originally Posted by GGG

The reason the price drops on CP is risk.

Ticketmaster and stubhub act as security to ensure the transaction goes smoothly. On CP someone needs to send the tickets / Money first or meet up in a parking lot. So
The CP price will fluctuate between the seller take from TM and the Buyer price from TM.

The second reason for lower prices here is the lack of buyers. Both Kijiji and TM reach a larger number of buyers therefore price should be higher on those platforms. Kijiji prices may be a little lower due to the above mentioned risk.

With TM/Stubhub taking 25% there is plenty of room between the seller take and buyer price for a lower price incorporating the risk / inconvenience to be agreed to on CP

I think risk is a legitimate concern. For both buyer and seller, I think alot of the risk can be mitigated through reviewing the party in questions profile and posting history.

[MRCboicgy]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

I really like this idea...it does have the benefit of limited duration and lets people test the waters.



Having said that, I do seem to remember that as the '04 run continued and got serious, there were quite a few new people on CP (maybe someone with better access to numbers would know, but I can only go by recollection). They were just here to read and chat at that time.
.

I actually loved the realtime chat during games after the 2004 run.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

the system already works, so why change?

This is what doesn't work well with the current system:

- Currently there is a few hours per week of moderation required; often for the sake of a few dollars. The person who mentioned getting a warning this week; he was within 10% of face value.

- A number of sellers are not listing tickets here for premium games. Recent examples, there were 8 listings for Leafs tickets, and over 20 for last night's Kings game. Why list here for FV when you can get more on Ticket Exchange?

Looking at how close the voting is, and from what people are saying in this thread, we are looking at opening it up on a trial basis. We did the same thing with allowing electronics to be sold above face value, and we didn't see us turning into the next Kijiji.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by MRCboicgy

I actually loved the realtime chat during games after the 2004 run.

Agreed, they had it in 2015 as well. Love the idea of having it for the playoffs.

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

Agreed, they had it in 2015 as well. Love the idea of having it for the playoffs.

Calgarypuck Discord channel?

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Looking at how close the voting is, and from what people are saying in this thread, we are looking at opening it up on a trial basis. We did the same thing with allowing electronics to be sold above face value, and we didn't see us turning into the next Kijiji.

Will CP be requiring sellers to provide proof of ST ownership (once per season) before posting? This would limit commercial scalping and scams.

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

Will CP be requiring sellers to provide proof of ST ownership (once per season) before posting? This would limit commercial scalping and scams.

This seems like unnecessary work for the mods.

Many of us sell multiple games throughout the year. It’s easy to see if someone has sold here before.

For new people, how about if you are concerned over a seller’s legitimacy, ask the seller to send you a screenshot of their STH account?

[Yoho]

I see why people on both sides want this. My main issue isn’t about dollars and cents but the ugly side of CP poster interactions and other BS that would potentially come with the change. But if it’s people on both sides (not just sellers) that want it, then a compelling case is made.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

This seems like unnecessary work for the mods.

Many of us sell multiple games throughout the year. It’s easy to see if someone has sold here before.

For new people, how about if you are concerned over a seller’s legitimacy, ask the seller to send you a screenshot of their STH account?

Or, don't buy the tickets.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

This seems like unnecessary work for the mods.



Many of us sell multiple games throughout the year. It’s easy to see if someone has sold here before.



For new people, how about if you are concerned over a seller’s legitimacy, ask the seller to send you a screenshot of their STH account?

This won’t stop trolls and scalpers from flooding the forum with posts that are not from STHs. I don’t want to have to go through 20 posts from scalpers before finding one from a legit STH. This has the potential to harm legitimate sellers just as much as buyers. It would just be a once per season exercise for each registered seller.

My point is that I only want to buy from STHs and I don’t want to give commercial scalpers and scam artists another free forum to expand their business. And the deeper we go, the more this will happen because these people will go where there’s money to be made, especially where they don’t have to pay 25%

[Draug]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

This won’t stop trolls and scalpers from flooding the forum with posts that are not from STHs. I don’t want to have to go through 20 posts from scalpers before finding one from a legit STH. This has the potential to harm legitimate sellers just as much as buyers. It would just be a once per season exercise for each registered seller.

The Scalpers are season ticket holders too. And there is no reason why a local Scalper would not have a CP account. Screening by STH and CP won't accomplish much.

If CP allows scalping, there'll be a lot more posts to wade through. Of course, it also means a lot more ticket supply too.