Alberta Election Thread - Election Day April 16 2019

[Fuzz]

They should turn some of the empty office towers into downtown super daycares, might be more convenient for people working downtown. Plus they could fill an atrium with a ball pit, which would be cool.

[GGG]

It’s irresponsible not to means test the program under the NDP plan.

I’m not interested in subsidizing young professionals who can afford child care.
Childcare is already subsidized significantly through the tax credit available. Somewhere between 20-30% depending on tax bracket and daycare bill.

If the goal is to encourage more children then subsidizing total child care cost as a % of income makes more sense as the first kids childcare cost is manageable. The second one crushes you.

The other problem is that it applies to licensed daycare spaces mostly rather than unlicensed dayhomes. Low income people tend to use lower priced dayhomes so a direct subsidy to parents might make more sense and then allow the market to provide spaces.

Subsidizing spaces picks winners and selects more costly childcare options.

[Ozy_Flame]

I would suspect that conversion of downtown space into residential units / increasing density of residential units in the Core would lead to a higher concentration of child care facilities in the Core as a result. But that's playing the long game.

Doesn't surprise me that there isn't much in the way of facilities downtown; people don't take their kids to work from the suburbs so there really isn't a mass impetus to have it. Maybe that will change with changing balance of downtown residential/commercial space.

[FireGilbert]

We currently pay $120/day for my daughter in day care. $25 day care is something that would strongly convince me to move back to Alberta. Just the little problem with trying to find a job...

[Kerplunk]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Is there not some way to try and make daycare cheaper rather than subsidizing something that's already crazy expensive? Give more licenses and expand the supply of daycares maybe? Maybe there's not I don't know anything about this issue.

There might be some wiggle room depending on services offered, but it might be a little tough.

As an example, a room for infants (1 year olds) need to have a ratio of 1 caregiver for 4 kids, so right there you need 2 people for a full day. At min wage it's $60 per child, not including food, supplies, space rental, extra time, and probably a whack of other things. The costs that I have seen are already pretty close to this number (if I make assumptions about pay and costs).

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by Tyler

Quebec.

Quebec subsidizes its child care on the backs of other provinces via equalization payments.

Alberta has no such luxury. Enjoy your debt and increased taxes everyone.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

We currently pay $120/day for my daughter in day care. $25 day care is something that would strongly convince me to move back to Alberta. Just the little problem with trying to find a job...

Fear not brother, the NDP says this will create 45k new jobs.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by GGG

It’s irresponsible not to means test the program under the NDP plan.

I’m not interested in subsidizing young professionals who can afford child care.
Childcare is already subsidized significantly through the tax credit available. Somewhere between 20-30% depending on tax bracket and daycare bill.

If the goal is to encourage more children then subsidizing total child care cost as a % of income makes more sense as the first kids childcare cost is manageable. The second one crushes you.

The other problem is that it applies to licensed daycare spaces mostly rather than unlicensed dayhomes. Low income people tend to use lower priced dayhomes so a direct subsidy to parents might make more sense and then allow the market to provide spaces.

Subsidizing spaces picks winners and selects more costly childcare options.

I’m not interested in subsidizing people who can’t afford to have kids?

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

We currently pay $120/day for my daughter in day care. $25 day care is something that would strongly convince me to move back to Alberta. Just the little problem with trying to find a job...

You pay $2400/month for day care in Sydney (Australia?) and day care for your daughter is the deciding factor if you would move back? Something she probably won’t need in five years?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Weitz

I’m not interested in subsidizing people who can’t afford to have kids?

Are you sure?

You need some kids to buy your house when you retire and to continue to consume to support your retirement investments

You also want lower income kids to be given good education opportunities early on to try to break the poverty cycle. Investing in poor kids seems like a good long term societal investment.

[stampsx2]

Notley sounds like she doesn’t have a plan. Her platform compared to Kenney’s is sparse and safe. Don’t say too much or you’ll turn voters away. Agree with Kenney’s platform or not, at least he’s clear on his party’s objectives. The expierience shows.

Whenever Notley does come out with a promise it all requires massive spending. Got anything else Rachel?

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Quebec subsidizes its child care on the backs of other provinces via equalization payments.

Alberta has no such luxury. Enjoy your debt and increased taxes everyone.

I dont have them available but Quebec numbers show the child care causes more people to work increasing taxes which pays for the program.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Quebec subsidizes its child care on the backs of other provinces via equalization payments.

Alberta has no such luxury. Enjoy your debt and increased taxes everyone.

This is not true. The presence or absense of the daycare program does not affect their transfer payments. They choose to have higher taxation in order to support their daycare program. If you subscribe to the theory that increased labour participation due to the program increases their median incomes the program would actually reduce the amount of equalization they are entitled to.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Not surprised when some people are paying $35k a year in child care. I couldn't imagine plunking down the median Canadian salary every year for someone to babysit a 4 year old.

I just can’t imagine that’s a normal cost though? It seems really high?

But the other side of this is that minimum wage rises, and I have to think the childcare costs rise with that. It kind of cuts both ways I think.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by GGG

This is not true. The presence or absense of the daycare program does not affect their transfer payments. They choose to have higher taxation in order to support their daycare program. If you subscribe to the theory that increased labour participation due to the program increases their median incomes the program would actually reduce the amount of equalization they are entitled to.

I think the implied message here is that Quebec can maintain their spending habits due to always receiving equalization.

[ah123]

Originally Posted by Slava

I just can’t imagine that’s a normal cost though? It seems really high?



But the other side of this is that minimum wage rises, and I have to think the childcare costs rise with that. It kind of cuts both ways I think.

I know a colleague of mine was paying $1100 per month for daycare for his (infant) son, and another colleague of mine was quoted $1600 per month for before and after care for his two kids. No idea what circumstances would take you to $35k per year, but not completely unimaginable, especially if there are special needs

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by Slava

I just can’t imagine that’s a normal cost though? It seems really high?

But the other side of this is that minimum wage rises, and I have to think the childcare costs rise with that. It kind of cuts both ways I think.

If you google that Twitter hashtag on the last page a Dr said she paid $36k for inner city child care.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Kerplunk

There might be some wiggle room depending on services offered, but it might be a little tough.

As an example, a room for infants (1 year olds) need to have a ratio of 1 caregiver for 4 kids, so right there you need 2 people for a full day. At min wage it's $60 per child, not including food, supplies, space rental, extra time, and probably a whack of other things. The costs that I have seen are already pretty close to this number (if I make assumptions about pay and costs).

Thanks for the info, that's interesting. So for cost cutting, as an example, does that ratio really need to be 1:4? For infants that presumably spend most of the day sleeping? I'm somewhat sympathetic to the idea of reducing child care costs as kids are important, although as someone in their 20s I'm a lot less sympathetic around tax time with all the deductions already available to people with kids. I just don't trust the NDP to have looked at market solutions to this problem instead of just tossing money at something that seems to already be wildly priced out of control.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

If you google that Twitter hashtag on the last page a Dr said she paid $36k for inner city child care.

Yeah I saw someone who said that today, and I don’t deny that someone could be paying it. I’m not even against subsidized child care because I think there’s a societal benefit. I just think that $35k/yr has to be way above the median unless there are a few kids, special needs or some extenuating circumstances.

[Lubicon]

I’m trying to find numbers to confirm but I had read in the past that Quebec’s daycare was the most costly childcare program in the country, and they actually spend more per child than they do for schooling. Up front cost is low but the difference is made up via taxes.