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Old 03-18-2019, 03:29 PM   #101
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Huh. It turns out Kathleen Wynne was a conservative then since she privatized Hydro One.
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:31 PM   #102
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:33 PM   #103
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Hmm I know many instances where Germans benefited from Jews being eradicated. Jobs opened up, houses were looted/re-occupied, and Jewish wealth was re-distributed and never returned.

That is like, the opposite of socialism. In a socialist society, Jews would have been on the receiving end of the wealth distribution.
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:34 PM   #104
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That is like, the opposite of socialism.


Re-distribution of wealth? Thatís socialism!


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Old 03-18-2019, 03:40 PM   #105
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You should probably call it a day.
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:44 PM   #106
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Re-distribution of wealth? Thatís socialism!


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Confiscating property is not wealth re-distribution in a socialist sense.

Just like crooked police confiscating property isn't socialism.
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:55 PM   #107
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Confiscating property is not wealth re-distribution in a socialist sense.



Just like crooked police confiscating property isn't socialism.


It is tho, itís almost like socialism in its pure form is theft. Ok Iím done.

https://mises.org/library/why-nazism...m-totalitarian

Feel free to read this article if you are willing to possibly opening up your mind to the evils of socialism. Donít let these progressives fool you, Socialism is never democratic in its pure form, it is never moral and the Nazis were very much Socialist. I hope everyone has a great day!

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Old 03-18-2019, 04:53 PM   #108
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If its on the Internet, it must be true!

Here's some more brilliance from the Mises Institute (founded by the same guys who developed the CATO Institute).

Democracy is Coercive

https://mises.org/library/democracy-coercive

"Democracy is still government, or to use Mencken’s analogy, it is still a cage. And government, as Rothbard wrote, is a "criminal band." Rothbard’s criticism was aimed at all governments, "All states everywhere, whether democratic, dictatorial, or monarchical, whether red, white, blue or brown." Democracy is as incompatible with true liberty as a dictatorship."

Real deep thinkers. 1+1+1=banana! With reasoning like that, you can prove just about anything.
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Old 03-18-2019, 05:01 PM   #109
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Nm

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Old 03-18-2019, 08:05 PM   #110
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If its on the Internet, it must be true!

Here's some more brilliance from the Mises Institute (founded by the same guys who developed the CATO Institute).

Democracy is Coercive

https://mises.org/library/democracy-coercive

"Democracy is still government, or to use Menckenís analogy, it is still a cage. And government, as Rothbard wrote, is a "criminal band." Rothbardís criticism was aimed at all governments, "All states everywhere, whether democratic, dictatorial, or monarchical, whether red, white, blue or brown." Democracy is as incompatible with true liberty as a dictatorship."

Real deep thinkers. 1+1+1=banana! With reasoning like that, you can prove just about anything.

They also have articles arguing that MMR vaccines cause Autism, that drunk driving should be legal, that holding parents responsible for their childrens' care represents an infringement of the rights of the parents, and that there should be a competitive free market for vital organs. Real quality stuff on there.
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:29 PM   #111
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Person arguing nazism is a pure example of socialism while not letting the “progressives fool” him because his mind is “open” posts link to weirdo website.

More at 11.
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:44 PM   #112
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It is tho, it’s almost like socialism in its pure form is theft. Ok I’m done.

https://mises.org/library/why-nazism...m-totalitarian

Feel free to read this article if you are willing to possibly opening up your mind to the evils of socialism. Don’t let these progressives fool you, Socialism is never democratic in its pure form, it is never moral and the Nazis were very much Socialist. I hope everyone has a great day!

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I'm sorry, but you need to consider intent and what those actions accomplished.

Confiscating property and allocating to the elite class isn't even an example of wealth distribution, let alone an example of socialism. Anything based on a caste system can't be socialism as the goal of socialism is to minimize class difference. The Nazis confiscated property and gave it to elites to deepen and enforce class divisions.

It's like calling Donald Trump a socialist for bailing out certain industries. The intent was to reinvigorate the capital potential of the industries. You have to look at what the goal and accomplishments of the Nazis were. Find the forest through the trees.
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:29 AM   #113
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I think that’s a fair question given your clear favouriting of socialism over anything conservative (the two aren’t at all comparable)
That sentence does not make any sense to me, expect for the part where they aren't comparable things. If they're not comparable, how can I meaningfully favor one over the other?

I'm going to try give an honest and serious answer to your question.

Finland is among the most socialist countries in the world (and generally considered a really great place to live). Same with Canada. They are also both decisively capitalist societies.

So I already live in a socialist society and in a capitalist society.

That's the shortest, straightest answer to you question I can come up with. But of course it's not a real answer. I can't give you a short, straight and meaningful answer.

It's not just that you use the words in a way which I would call "incorrect" (sorry), it's also that I'm not sure if there is a way to use the words socialism and capitalism in a way that would successfully transfer what I think to you. We not only use the words differently, we seem to use those words to discuss different topics altogether.

(I also suspect you're conflating capitalism with a market economy in your question, and socialism with a planned economy. (BTW the latter isn't the only theoretically possible form of a non - capitalist economy. Moderns radical socialist tend to have rather different ideas.)

Finland and Canada are examples of (relatively) socialist countries with market economies. They are also examples that capitalism and socialism can coexist perfectly well in a society. Just like liberalism and conservatism always coexist in a society. )

The closest thing to a meaningful answer I can think of is this:

I don't want to live a in society with absolutely no socialism. I also can't imagine how a free modern society would function without a market economy, and I can't imagine how a market economy would work with absolutely no capitalism. (The closest thing I can think of is old school Star Trek, but " I'd probably like to live in Star Trek" isn't what I'd consider a serious answer to your question.

(Of course the limits of my imagination doesn't mean such a society couldn't exist, but it does make the question of whether I'd like to live in such a society unanswerable for me right now.).

Or in other words:
I believe that to maximize personal freedom and wellbeing on a population level (examples of values I see as more important than what economic system we have), any society remotely like ours needs to find the right balance of socialist and capitalist ideas (and also the right balance for a lot of other things). And that we're currently off balance and have both too much capitalism (meaning for example that having a lot of money gives you disproportionate amount of control over a lot more than just what you own) and not enough socialism (meaning for example that a lot of people don't get proper compensation for the benefit they bring to the society).

I also think my thinking is typical for a modern "socialist", even if I'm more verbose than most. I'm sure I've met a self-identifying socialist that wants to literally end capitalism altogether, but it's rare enough that I can't remember that ever happening.

People who want to literally end capitalism generally call themselves anarchists these days (And not all anarchists want that. Anarchism is a much bigger tent than people realize.)

(And again, please try to remember that we have different meanings for the words "capitalism" and "socialism", and that's why my answer becomes a bit of a mess.

I'm not trying to be obtuse, this is actually how I think.

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Old 03-19-2019, 01:07 PM   #114
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I'm sorry, but you need to consider intent and what those actions accomplished.

Confiscating property and allocating to the elite class isn't even an example of wealth distribution, let alone an example of socialism. Anything based on a caste system can't be socialism as the goal of socialism is to minimize class difference. The Nazis confiscated property and gave it to elites to deepen and enforce class divisions.

It's like calling Donald Trump a socialist for bailing out certain industries. The intent was to reinvigorate the capital potential of the industries. You have to look at what the goal and accomplishments of the Nazis were. Find the forest through the trees.
Great point. The Germans "nationalized" industries so they could finance and build out their military industrial complex needed to spread their ideology by force. There was no socialism in this, this was about achieving a geopolitical objective through the most obvious of means. The Germans still got into bed with many industrialists and foreign companies to further their goals. IBM, GM, Ford, Alcoa, Dow, Coca Cola, and Chase Manhattan were just a few of the big American interests who profiteered off the Third Reich.

I really wish Beninho had left his quotes from the leadership of the Third Reich up as I wanted to explain the importance of context. In one he had Hitler speaking at great lengths about their connection to the Soviets and being "brothers in socialism." The context that was missing from that quote was that at the time the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was still hanging by a precarious thread, and Hitler needed to keep the Soviets convinced the pact would protect them and buy the Germans time to step up the industrialization of their war machine. The second quote, espousing how Germans would show the Soviets how "socialism worked" was made (and I believe tongue in cheek) in the lead up to Operation Barbarossa when the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact would crumble and the Germans would pour over the border into the Soviet Union. Context matters.
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Old 03-19-2019, 03:44 PM   #115
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I've seen this 'the Natzi's were actually socialist' crap all over the place the last 2 years it has to be a troll. Its hard to believe that climate change deniers and these people roll with one another so easily without it being people effing around.

Facts aren't facts anymore, so we'll just burn all the books, and everyone can just have their own wikipedia.
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Old 03-19-2019, 06:58 PM   #116
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Facts aren't facts anymore, so we'll just burn all the books, and everyone can just have their own wikipedia.
Now that you mention it...

https://www.conservapedia.com/Socialism

'Socialists consider all forms of capitalism as "fascist"'

https://www.conservapedia.com/Fascism

'Conservatives are inherently anti-Fascist'

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Old 03-20-2019, 08:12 AM   #117
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Interesting thread, I haven't seen all of it... do the participants even have a standard definition of liberalism and conservatism to base this debate on? Lots of people using the words L/liberal and C/conservative without seeming to know what the words actually represent.
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Old 03-20-2019, 03:01 PM   #118
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Interesting thread, I haven't seen all of it... do the participants even have a standard definition of liberalism and conservatism to base this debate on?
No.

Quote:
Lots of people using the words L/liberal and C/conservative without seeming to know what the words actually represent.
Yes.

Of course, there are no objectively right or even best definitions of those words.
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Old 03-20-2019, 05:07 PM   #119
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The Nazi's where NOT socialists, Communism is not fascist, David Duke is a fascist and Pineapples on pizza is trash. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
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