2022 PGA Tour Thread

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

The PGA tour's hand is being forced here. They have to do what they have to do to keep the top players. That's really the only priority that matters right now. That's not necessarily going to be good for the fans and their long term sustainability and not necessary good for the 60-125 type players.

As long as the PGA tour keeps it's meritocracy aspect intact, and doesn't lose too many of the top current players, then I'll keep watching.

When you have to compete against an organization that cares nothing about losing billions, then the market forces go out the window, and you just have to try to do what you can to survive.

If Liv wins, it's not because they have a better model, it's just because they bought all the players, and we'll be left with a pro golf league no one wanted and few will watch.

Good riddance to the tour. And the top players now forming a higher paid 'tour' - Hypocrites. "Have to keep the best players" - Soooo it's ok for you to stay and get paid more (forced by the LIV) but those who left first for the LUIV are villain's for doing it first?

There is nothing wrong with playing for $$, or leaving for more $$. What is wrong it the tour being a non-profit while lining the pockets of their executives, refusing players NIL rights, and ensuring a small group of players - Tiger Woods and his buddies, get extra money through programs like "Player Impact Program" - Which paid Tiger $8 million in 2021 to not play.

https://theathletic.com/3510760/2022...million-prize/

Good thing the tour (and executives... err 5 metrics) controls that money instead of allowing the players to earn their own NIL $$ individually.

https://insidesources.com/as-pga-exe...profit-status/

The Tour’s seven top executives received annual compensation of $2,026,000 in 2019 while the average Tour golfer on the money-winning list received $1,225,000. In other words, the executives were paid 65 percent more than the athletes.

The LIV is certainly a joke, but so is a lot of things about the PGA tour. The fact how quickly the tour can pivot and "find" all this extra cash for players is the first proof of how corrupt it is.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Good riddance to the tour. And the top players now forming a higher paid 'tour' - Hypocrites. "Have to keep the best players" - Soooo it's ok for you to stay and get paid more (forced by the LIV) but those who left first for the LUIV are villain's for doing it first?

There is nothing wrong with playing for $$, or leaving for more $$. What is wrong it the tour being a non-profit while lining the pockets of their executives, refusing players NIL rights, and ensuring a small group of players - Tiger Woods and his buddies, get extra money through programs like "Player Impact Program" - Which paid Tiger $8 million in 2021 to not play.



Good thing the tour (and executives... err 5 metrics) controls that money instead of allowing the players to earn their own NIL $$ individually.

https://insidesources.com/as-pga-exe...profit-status/



The LIV is certainly a joke, but so is a lot of things about the PGA tour. The fact how quickly the tour can pivot and "find" all this extra cash for players is the first proof of how corrupt it is.

I don't know how accurate it is to say that the players don't control their own NIL. Ricky Fowler can film a million commercials of him playing golf and keep all the money (I think), and take millions from Puma and Cobra to wear their gear in tournaments. Phil's argument was that he couldn't take his highlights from pga tournament broadcasts and sell NFTs of his greatest moments on tour or put them on his tiktok channel or whatever.

The executive salaries seem excessive, but not totally out of line of other sports or business. Goodell makes more than any player.

The non-profit status is a tad overblown. The NFL and MLB both used to be non-profit, but gave it up mostly so they (ironically) did not have to disclose executive salaries. It seems doubtful that the non-profit status inflates executive salaries, and they are decided by the player's committee or whatever. Incorporating as a business and giving out owner's stakes to whoever, is not going to help the player's cause and executives salaries would all be tax deductible anyway.

Finding extra cash to invest in keeping players is not proof they are "corrupt". They just decided to re-direct that money that was likely for future investment into keeping their star players in this battle with liv.

I see more as guys like Rory, JT, Tiger, Spieth telling the tour what they need to do to keep the other big names who may be on the fence. That core seems committed to staying, but if the other big names leave, then there isn't much worth saving any more. The PGA tour's existence is at risk and that is the entire goal of Greg Norman and the Saudis. If Cam Smith is the only top 15 player to leave, then they should be fine, but if half the top 15 leaves, then pro golf is done.

[DoubleK]

Meanwhile on the KFT....

Sloan had a good week and is currently inside The 25 on 44 points. You need about 220 to be safe which is essentially a top 5 finish.

Gligic made the cut, but stumbled on the weekend and sits on 7.8 points. He has lots of work to do.

[nfotiu]

Kind of a lot to unpack in the new changes announced today:

https://www.pgatour.com/news/2022/08...-schedule.html

I guess they see the PIP as the vehicle to keep paying the big names who may not win as much any more, and get them committed to playing the bigger tournaments. It doesn't seem like they are going to to move to too many small field/no cut tournaments as previously suggested.

I don't love the changes, but could be worse It still keeps the meritocracy for qualifying for tournaments, but compromises by giving the bigger stars another avenue to making money.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Said this at the start, and it's even more true now, but the net of all of this is the players get richer and the fans get a worse product. In theory that should be a major blow to interest in a sport, but we'll see I guess.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Said this at the start, and it's even more true now, but the net of all of this is the players get richer and the fans get a worse product. In theory that should be a major blow to interest in a sport, but we'll see I guess.

It's a tight line they are walking that's for sure.

Then there's this...

https://twitter.com/user/status/1562446996178251776

https://twitter.com/user/status/1562453729625812993

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

I don't know how accurate it is to say that the players don't control their own NIL. Ricky Fowler can film a million commercials of him playing golf and keep all the money (I think), and take millions from Puma and Cobra to wear their gear in tournaments. Phil's argument was that he couldn't take his highlights from pga tournament broadcasts and sell NFTs of his greatest moments on tour or put them on his tiktok channel or whatever.

The executive salaries seem excessive, but not totally out of line of other sports or business. Goodell makes more than any player.

The non-profit status is a tad overblown. The NFL and MLB both used to be non-profit, but gave it up mostly so they (ironically) did not have to disclose executive salaries. It seems doubtful that the non-profit status inflates executive salaries, and they are decided by the player's committee or whatever. Incorporating as a business and giving out owner's stakes to whoever, is not going to help the player's cause and executives salaries would all be tax deductible anyway.

Finding extra cash to invest in keeping players is not proof they are "corrupt". They just decided to re-direct that money that was likely for future investment into keeping their star players in this battle with liv.

I see more as guys like Rory, JT, Tiger, Spieth telling the tour what they need to do to keep the other big names who may be on the fence. That core seems committed to staying, but if the other big names leave, then there isn't much worth saving any more. The PGA tour's existence is at risk and that is the entire goal of Greg Norman and the Saudis. If Cam Smith is the only top 15 player to leave, then they should be fine, but if half the top 15 leaves, then pro golf is done.

I agree on a couple of fronts.

The exempt status of the tour is a red herring IMO. There are no shareholders so who is it that is not paying taxes? It would be achievable to structure like many other associations and keep taxable income close to zero at the taxable entity level. Would require some planning but I don't see this as a big challenge and not something the Tour really worries about.

The salaries of the seven top executives being over $2 million? That's not really all that unexpected and IMO is on par with most large corporate entities. Should the seven top execs make more than the prize money for an average tour player? Doesn't seem outlandish to me.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Also can't help but laugh at the Prophet Mickelson being 100% correct. Granted he won't benefit from it, but the LIV leverage worked in getting better deals for PGA players. Hopefully he got himself some good odds on being correct and cashed well.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Also can't help but laugh at the Prophet Mickelson being 100% correct. Granted he won't benefit from it, but the LIV leverage worked in getting better deals for PGA players. Hopefully he got himself some good odds on being correct and cashed well.

There's a lot of ways at looking at that though.

If a rival league started up with the intention of making a more profitable product and genuinely force the PGA Tour to up their game, then yeah, he's right. Instead it's just a group willing to throw away however much money is necessary to lure players away with no real plan to ever make money.

So yeah, the leverage of the Saudi money is enough to have the tour make changes that help the star players, maybe help the lower tier players and make for a possibly worse product. It's to be seen if that makes for a long term sustainable product where the players are indeed better off or if the Saudi money just causes pro golf to destroy itself from greed.

But yeah, you can say that Phil's actions benefitted the players remaining on the tour for now. I just don't necessary agree with the take that this proves that the PGA could have/should have been doing all this all along.

[Jason14h]

I for one am shocked , SHOCKED that Tiger and Rory are supporting the tour existing model, while simultenously launching a business venture with them, pushing an elite tour where they will make more $$, and collecting the most $$ for the PIP program

SHOCKED

But remember they are all about the tour as a whole and not themselves, and players leaving for the LIV are evil.

Should just rename the PGA tour to the Tiger and Friends Tour since they will ensure they are the ones financially taken care of while continueing to screw over 75% of the tour.

[Jason14h]

And for everyone saying the LIV could never make money - Here is the PGA income statement from last year - Most of the revenue gets eaten by something called "Functional Expenses" - Which is a term used by non-profits. Maybe 1.46 billion in expenses has some room for effeciency and the money going back to the players.

Sure LIV is going to bleed $$ now, but if they think they can grow the game internationally, grow revenue, become cooler then the PGA, etc, there's no reason they can't make money one day

The Saudis don't care about making $$,
but I am sure a lot of smart people have business models to become profitable one day.

Total Revenue

$1,534,021,881

Total Functional Expenses

($1,461,249,307)

Net Income

$72,772,574

Total Executive Compensation

($27,500,490)

Jay Monahan (Commissioner) Salary

($5,378,295)

Program Services

$1,167,400,356

Royalties

$224,061,902

Pretty amazing how fast the tour 'found' 10's of millions if not pushing a hundred million in extra prize money when their hand was forced. Wish I had those couches to look through to find money.

The fans will loose short term, but there's no way these 2 tours will compete for more then 1 more year IMO. The PGA will cave as Mickelson knew they would, when the other 75% of players who aren't in Tigers inner circle realize what a scam it is and that the tour never gave a crud for them.

[nfotiu]

Trillion? Wouldn't functional expenses include purses and cost to run tournaments?

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

Trillion? Wouldn't functional expenses include purses and cost to run tournaments?

Oops typoed Billion to Trillion haha

It would include

But the revenue number is 1.5 billion.

Next year they will pay out a record $428 million in purses. And this number was influenced to increase heavily from LIV

https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/...offs-liv-golf/

Without knowing that revenue for next year, if there was no increase that would be 23% of revenue paid to players. So let's argue 20% for easy math

NHL revenue share is 50/50 by comparison

Now without open books it hard to know exactly what the real share for PGA players is, but it sure looks like that are getting the short end of the stick.

The PGA claims it is in line

And those deals are worth a ton. In March 2020 the tour finalized a new nine-year media rights agreement with CBS Sports, NBC Sports and ESPN that went into effect in 2022 that will pay the tour $7 billion over this span. Mickelson, in a September podcast with Gary Williams, complained that only 26 percent of this revenue was being funneled back to the players. In truth, according to a memo from PGA Tour Commissioner Jay Monahan to players last November, 55 percent of revenue is going back to the players in prize money, bonus programs and other benefits. This 55 percent is in line with what NBA and NFL players receive from their respective leagues (MLB is currently in a labor dispute).

but lots of players think they are lieing and sitting on piles of cash.

That's the biggest issue - Players don't trust the PGA tour, and why would they. The second they come under 'attack' from a competitor they start finding millions for the players.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Oops typoed Billion to Trillion haha

It would include

But the revenue number is 1.5 billion.

Next year they will pay out a record $428 million in purses. And this number was influenced to increase heavily from LIV

https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/...offs-liv-golf/

Without knowing that revenue for next year, if there was no increase that would be 23% of revenue paid to players. So let's argue 20% for easy math

NHL revenue share is 50/50 by comparison

Now without open books it hard to know exactly what the real share for PGA players is, but it sure looks like that are getting the short end of the stick.

The PGA claims it is in line


but lots of players think they are lieing and sitting on piles of cash.

That's the biggest issue - Players don't trust the PGA tour, and why would they. The second they come under 'attack' from a competitor they start finding millions for the players.

You talk like there is some kind of pga tour bogeyman secretly withdrawing tax free money and putting it under a generic line item. If the tour is holding onto money for future use, nobody is getting rich from that.

These are the people Monahan has to report to:

https://www.pgatourmediaguide.com/in...d-of-directors

I would expect the players on the board would see the books and know where the money is going.

I'm just not convinced that it is shady that when a competitor is trying to buy their players out from them to put them out of business, that they would borrow or withdraw money now to try to fight that.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Reads like Trump wrote it lol.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1562510554010632194

[Strange Brew]

LOL at Rory's start. A triple on the first hole, but back to even par after 8. Triple, 2 bogies, 3 birdies and an eagle after 8 holes.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

That's the biggest issue - Players don't trust the PGA tour, and why would they. The second they come under 'attack' from a competitor they start finding millions for the players.

Liv isn't really a fair competitor though.
They have unlimited money and no concern for building a profitable business model.
This is just hobby money to them, completely detached from revenues, earnings or any normal business metric.

If there's an unfair share of money to golfers, that should be addressed through collective bargaining, player associations etc just like other sports.
I don't know enough about the PGA structure to say it is or isn't unfair to players, but Liv isn't some fantastic business model bringing fairness to the sport. It's a sideshow fetish project for bored trillionaires.

[ZedMan]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

It's a sideshow fetish project for bored trillionaires.

Correction, it's part of a sportswashing campaign sponsored by a certain western-allied middle eastern country with a less-than-stellar human rights reputation.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by ZedMan

Correction, it's part of a sportswashing campaign sponsored by a certain western-allied middle eastern country with a less-than-stellar human rights reputation.

I'm still not seeing how this sportswashing is helping the Saudis in any way at all. They mostly try to de-emphasize the Saudis are involved, the majority of golf fans hate the whole idea of their tour, and the actual events get almost no attention.

Unless they just love throwing away billion after billion, how long until they realize this was a bad idea and fold the league? Is there any legal recourse for the players to get their money from the Saudi's if the league dissolves and where do the players golf at that point?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Well with the new PGA changes we will now see where LIV goes. In theory they've been blocked from getting any more top players. Do they give up? Or go over the top with even stupider money? Or do they try and corner the market on international players going forward and make themselves the international tour while the PGA becomes relegated to North America only?