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Old 08-13-2017, 02:06 AM   #121
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To conclude, the Flames are still no Detroit when it comes to developing bonafide everday NHL players, but to say they have nothing in the pipeline, as this Lambert suggests is completely laughable and shows how unlnowledgable he is of this team, or just how much of a troll he is
OT rant, but when was the last time Detroit actually drafted and developed so well as to deserve this reputation? They pulled some good to great players out of Europe in the late 90s and early 2000s, and have been riding that hype train ever since. Recently the best players they've developed are 2nd line forwards good for 40-50 points, which every team in the league has done (even Edmonton).

The Flames by contrast have at least developed and graduated players like Brodie, Gaudreau, Ferland, and Giordano since then. With the exception of Ferland those are all *far* superior players to anyone the Wings have produced, and were drafted independently of the standings. I would even argue that the Flames' current crop of prospects outstrips what the Wings have in their system.

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Old 08-13-2017, 04:11 AM   #122
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Yep, Detroit has been average at drafting and developing for quite some time. And the time where they can let players develop in the AHL and abroad because of players like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and others has ran out.

They can't afford to let their prospects stew when their NHL team isn't a power house any more.

Sad times coming for Detroit.
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Old 08-13-2017, 08:32 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by ---Hatrick--- View Post
To conclude, the Flames are still no Detroit when it comes to developing bonafide everday NHL players, but to say they have nothing in the pipeline, as this Lambert suggests is completely laughable and shows how unlnowledgable he is of this team, or just how much of a troll he is
Even Detroit isn't Detroit when it comes to developing bonafide NHL players. The great myth that started with two late round wins decades ago just keeps going every time they develop a decent NHL like every other team in the league does now and then.
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Old 08-13-2017, 10:56 AM   #124
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What I find most laughable about Lambert's column is he basically says the Flames have too many guys in their mid-20s, who are about to fall of a cliff and no longer be competitive, and at the same time complains that the Flames' guys coming up are too young to provide any support. In Lambert's world, a player's prime must be about five hours long, and the window to win is based on a critical mass of players with the same prime window.
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Old 08-13-2017, 11:40 AM   #125
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100% agree. The statement wasn't meant to applaud Detroits more recent success ( or lack of ) drafting and developing. It was meant to be directed to their previous reputation of player development and letting prospects ripen in the minors
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:10 PM   #126
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[QUOTE=mrdonkey;6345926]OT rant, but when was the last time Detroit actually drafted and developed so well as to deserve this reputation? They pulled some good to great players out of Europe in the late 90s and early 2000s, and have been riding that hype train ever since. Recently the best players they've developed are 2nd line forwards good for 40-50 points, which every team in the league has done (even Edmonton).

I wouldn't give Edmonton that much credit lol. Who, besides their first overalls, or their over obvious early first round picks have they drafted that are having this kind of success?
To me, you have to look at drafting after the first round to see where how good a team is at drafting and or developing because some early first round picks are the obvious ones that any GM picking in that position would pick.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but do they have any player drafted after the first round on that roster that not only is producing at that rate, or even an effective NHL player?
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:26 PM   #127
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I wouldn't give Edmonton that much credit lol. Who, besides their first overalls, or their over obvious early first round picks have they drafted that are having this kind of success?
To me, you have to look at drafting after the first round to see where how good a team is at drafting and or developing because some early first round picks are the obvious ones that any GM picking in that position would pick.
I dunno, the following group is potentially a better group than Detroit has drafted over the same span:

- Devan Dubnyk (14th overall, starting goalie)
- Oscar Klefbom (19th overall, #2-ish defenseman)
- Jeff Petry (45th overall,#3-ish defenseman)
- Jordan Eberle (22nd overall, 50-70 point winger)
- Andrew Cogliano (25th overall, 2nd line shutdown winger)

and a few other players who are still developing:
- Tobias Reider (112nd overall, 3rd line winger / PKer)
- Brandon Davidson (162nd overall, #5-ish defenseman, maybe even a #4 based on his 2015-16 season, but injury-prone)
- Martin Marincin (46nd overall, #6-ish defenseman but Leafs are high on his potential)

It makes sense though, since Detroit's top scout(s?) went with Yzerman to Tampa Bay. And guess what, Tampa Bay is the team that found Palat, Johnson, Kucherov, Point, Gusev, and generally has a sweet prospect pool.
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:40 PM   #128
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As long as the Flames keep getting underestimated by their competition, the sports press and anyone else, I'll be OK with that. Also, as long as those same groups continue to coronate the Oilers before they earn it, I'm fine with that as well.
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Old 08-13-2017, 02:43 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by GranteedEV View Post
I dunno, the following group is potentially a better group than Detroit has drafted over the same span:

- Devan Dubnyk (14th overall, starting goalie)
- Oscar Klefbom (19th overall, #2-ish defenseman)
- Jeff Petry (45th overall,#3-ish defenseman)
- Jordan Eberle (22nd overall, 50-70 point winger)
- Andrew Cogliano (25th overall, 2nd line shutdown winger)

and a few other players who are still developing:
- Tobias Reider (112nd overall, 3rd line winger / PKer)
- Brandon Davidson (162nd overall, #5-ish defenseman, maybe even a #4 based on his 2015-16 season, but injury-prone)
- Martin Marincin (46nd overall, #6-ish defenseman but Leafs are high on his potential)

It makes sense though, since Detroit's top scout(s?) went with Yzerman to Tampa Bay. And guess what, Tampa Bay is the team that found Palat, Johnson, Kucherov, Point, Gusev, and generally has a sweet prospect pool.
Thanks for saving me the effort, same list I would have come up with (plus Sam Gagner, who despite being a failure as a high pick still managed to find success as a 2nd line forward once he left the Coilers. Now that he's a Canuck I hope he goes back to being smelly).

Thankfully most of these players are no longer Greasers and were only good once they left, so I don't have to celebrate them too much.
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Old 08-13-2017, 02:55 PM   #130
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The challenge for the Flames has been turning the secondary prospects into useful complementary players. Aside from maybe Brodie, if you want to call him "complementary," who have the Flames produced from their system who slots in around their stars?
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Old 08-13-2017, 03:05 PM   #131
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The challenge for the Flames has been turning the secondary prospects into useful complementary players. Aside from maybe Brodie, if you want to call him "complementary," who have the Flames produced from their system who slots in around their stars?


Ferland looks like a good example of this, but I agree with the point overall. Hopefully we see that change in the years to come with Klimchuk. Poirier, Eatbread etc.
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Old 08-13-2017, 03:06 PM   #132
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Tampa is the new Detroit when it comes to drafting and developing impact players with Palat, Kucherov, Johnson, Killorn, Namestnikov..

I don't know why people are still talking about Detroit's drafting 20 years ago.
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Old 08-13-2017, 03:12 PM   #133
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The challenge for the Flames has been turning the secondary prospects into useful complementary players. Aside from maybe Brodie, if you want to call him "complementary," who have the Flames produced from their system who slots in around their stars?
That is quite true and I think has been the Flames' downfall of recent years in terms of developing.

The prospects have been boom or bust, without too much in between at the NHL level. They've had some gems that have panned out brilliantly. But the team has had to go to free agency to fill in the gaps and get that supporting cast.

We need a couple of guys like Shinkaruk, Poirier, Klimchuk, Foo, Lazar, Mangiapane to turn into 40-50 point, middle six forwards, to get rid of the need for overpriced free agents.

That also requires the team giving them the opportunity to take the ball and run with it in a 3rd line type role.

It's unfortunate that the Flames did have that kind of player come out of their system in Byron, yet let him go for nothing...
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Old 08-13-2017, 03:26 PM   #134
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The challenge for the Flames has been turning the secondary prospects into useful complementary players. Aside from maybe Brodie, if you want to call him "complementary," who have the Flames produced from their system who slots in around their stars?
TBQH:

Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland
Tkachuk-Backlund-Granlund
Baertschi-Bennett-Frolik
Byron-Stajan-Hathaway

That wouldn't look half bad. A bit left-shot heavy, though and extremely young.
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Old 08-13-2017, 03:31 PM   #135
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Baertschi and Granlund weren't the type of complimentary players the Flames needed. Didn't have the physicality, consistency and character tbh (and were both fragile). However the return for those players has not panned out to this point, so right now it's a bit of a loss.
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Old 08-13-2017, 03:35 PM   #136
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*Ryan Lambert checks CP, starts eagerly crafting next troll piece.
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Old 08-13-2017, 04:15 PM   #137
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IMO, the criticisms being leveled at this article are overblown, stemming more from who the messenger is.

Here's what I believe the heart of his argument is:

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Taken on its face, the high end of the Calgary Flames roster is probably among the best in the Western Conference.

You have Johnny Gaudreau, Mark Giordano, Dougie Hamilton, TJ Brodie, the entire 3M line, Sean Monahan. The good news is that basically all those guys, with the exception of Giordano (very old) and Matthew Tkachuk (very young), are in their mid- to late-20s.

This is what you’d call a team’s “window to win” — the point at which most of a team’s big-ticket players are around the primes of their careers — but the Flames have a very serious problem. You can have a good group at the top of your lineup, but if you don’t support them at the lower end, your ability to actually win while your window is open is limited.
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What, exactly, do they hope to accomplish with this group?

Point is, two or three years from now, they might all look around and realize, “Oh, we could have cobbled something together here.” Instead, there seems to be a strange lack of ambition here, which is weird given the team’s previous ‘Going For It’ culture.
I read that as: the team has an elite core that is in it's window to be challenging for the cup, but is hamstrung by some serious flaws outside of that core that management doesn't seem to be making much of an effort to solve right now. As a result, we could look back to or three years from now and see them as two or three wasted years.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that premise. No, the window won't then be slammed shut, but I don't see that point being made anywhere outside of a sensational headline.

What are those serious flaws? First:

Quote:
getting it very, very wrong in net. . . .

Last year the Flames should have gotten good goaltending. Brian Elliott and Chad Johnson are two guys with very solid track records. They combined to go .910 over the course of the season, in a league in which the average netminder stopped shots at .915. They made the playoffs anyway, though just barely, and got swept out of the first round.

So the team recognized goaltending as a major flaw; it probably cost them 10 or 11 goals over the course of the season, which is the equivalent of about three points in the standings. They gain three points and maybe they avoid the Ducks in the first round, depending upon where they lost them and so on. So in response to this major flaw, their big offseason plan was to go out and get… Mike Smith and Eddie Lack?
Completely legitimate concern, IMO, and one I've brought up before: the team's success for the last couple of years was hindered by substandard to down right horrific goaltending, and management has again just put a bandaid on the wound rather that trying to really solve it. Neither Smith or Lack have put up numbers the last couple of years that make them good bets to put up contender level goaltending.

Now I know why they've gone with the bandaid solution: because they think they may have one or two guys in the system that could be the long term solution for free. But goalie prospects who have done nothing in the league really are magic beans who more often than not fail, and when they do succeed, they usually take time to come into their own.

So, it's not irrational, or being a hater, to suggest that two or three seasons from now we'll all look back and lament that the Flames didn't get the quality of goaltending they needed to really contend for a cup, just as we now look back on the last two years as (to some degree) wasted due to sup-standard goaltending.

Next flaw?

Quote:
But that’s what gets into the concerns about the Flames’ depth and lack of developed young players. After the five forwards listed above, and maybe you lump in Kris Versteeg and even Micheal Ferland if you want to be charitable, the Flames have a lot of problems up front this season. They might try to make Troy Brouwer “a thing” on the top line again, but that was a disaster last time out. Matt Stajan is their No. 3 center. Sam Bennett hasn’t come along much at all. They’ll be counting on a rookie or two to chip in offensively.

Only six forwards finished with CF% of more than 50 percent last season, and one of them (Alex Chiasson) doesn’t seem like he’s coming back. Even free of context, this is a concern, but the five they have coming back are the five “core” guys listed above. That’s got to be seen as a big issue.

After all, what can you expect out of Stajan, offensively? How many goals do Freddie Hamilton and Curtis Lazar give you if they’re everyday players? Can Sam Bennett find some way to clear 30 points again, let alone 40? And they certainly didn’t add any offense this summer, instead making their big move to trade for Travis Hamonic, who could excel in a middle-pairing role. But that’s not really what they needed here.
The Flames were 17th in scoring last season, and I think it's bang on to be concerned that they did very little to address the holes up front in the organization as a whole: there are no RW in the organization that I consider current Top 6 guys or blue chip prospects. Ferland comes closest, as I love his combination of size, footspeed, and hands, but thus far he hasn't shown the ability to put it all together for more than spurts. I do think Bennett could absolutely be that guy day one of camp if they moved him to the right side, but if they're adamant on keeping him as a centre, I don't think it's wrong to be worried about seeing a sudden offensive uptick if he's played behind Monahan and Backlund, and with... Brouwer? Lazar? Versteeg? as his everyday wingers.

What other player in the entire organization looks to be a future scorer for the Flames? I still like Jankowski, but not as a big scorer at the NHL level.

Instead of addressing this, Treliving spent a lot of assets to add Hamonic and re-sign Stone. I really like Hamonic, and think Stone could be really solid on the third pairing, but defense was the Flames biggest area of strength, with three legitimate 1st pairing guys in the NHL already, and much more depth in the organization (Kulak, Andersson, Kylington, Valimaki, Fox) than at forward.

So, it's not irrational, or being a hater, to suggest that two or three seasons from now we'll all look back and lament that the Flames didn't supplement the big 5 up front with the supporting scoring they needed to really contend for a cup.

Now, could things turn out fabulously? Absolutely! Bennett could flourish in whatever position he is played. Ferland could break out as a full time top line RW. Smith could re-find his 2011-12 form and stay healthy.

But if you look at this team as having an elite core, this team is riding too much on hope going into this season rather that legitimate expectation based on proven evidence. And with management not really taking strides going into this year to address the legitimate holes, it's not irrational to worry that "two or three years from now, they might all look around and realize, “Oh, we could have cobbled something [great] together here.”

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Old 08-13-2017, 04:19 PM   #138
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Personally, I'd love to basically swap one of our blue chip defense prospects for a blue chip forward prospect and very soon. I think we could nail a legit top line winger out of a trade as d-men are so much more valuable in a trade.

When you get to the point of having three incredible D-prospects, AND one of the best D-cores in the NHL for years to come, I think you forget about the fact that the D prospect you trade may become a great NHL and address an area of need when you've already spent so many assets on trying to win in the next few years.

Don't go half way, or even three quarters, do everything you can to make the team a contender now. Deal from strength, address a weakness.
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Old 08-13-2017, 04:21 PM   #139
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I would have loved a Kylington or Anderson + for Drouin for example (I know he's not a prospect anymore) and I bet most would have been apoplectic at the idea. Would have really solidified our forwards and pushed us to legit contender status, in a world where I think fans have been in a rebuilding mindset for so long that they're afraid to push out assets and finally start going for it.
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Old 08-13-2017, 04:38 PM   #140
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I would've liked a Drouin type add too. (who wouldn't) but we need a little beef injected into the lineup at some point. Gaudreau and Monahan already shy away from the rough stuff.

Brad needs to make his next trade for a top 6 type add.

The x-factors are if Ferland can become a consistent scorer or if Brouwer can pull up his pants and bring what he was supposed to in year 1.

I don't like depending on either of those panning out to help bolster our offense up front though.

3M are fine and an adequately productive second line, but it would be nice to have a guy on the right side of JG and SM that can keep up and contribute to their plays at a high level. Their year with (good) Hudler shows what they're capable of with a skilled winger. But we need someone who at the very least won't get shoved around out there either.
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