Super Fatty Gym Thread

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by wwkayaker

From my experience in the gym, I would estimate that 90% of gym goers have form/technique issues yet believe they are really strong. Most people would benefit by dropping the weight significantly and focusing on their movements. If someone is concerned about their form being the problem, check out Mark Rippetoe’s website/book/videos.

If you have perfected the range of movement for an exercise and are no longer sore, it is probably time to change up the routine. That being said, leg soreness from squats never seems to be absent after a good workout. There is a reason why many people skip leg day.

I think that there are certainly wrong ways to lift weights and then also different ways to most efficiently build muscle. Many people that have lifted weights for many years can always learn something new, but I have not experienced the 90% like you have. There is always something everyone can do better in the gym.

Over the years more and more research has been done on lifting weights, and there are always new programs coming out. Yet the strongest people in the gym are simply lifting more weight, pushing more, even with poor technique. I think kettle bells are a good example of how adding more and more muscles to a lift can be a good thing, the cheating in a weight room may actually be good, as long as it isn't something that will injure you.

Keep in mind any advice I give is for power lifting, getting bigger and stronger so that you can lift even more weight. The amount of people I have met in the gym offering advice that contradicts simply how to get stronger is staggering, almost like the book smarts interfere with lifting weights.

In my opinion, figure out what you can lift regular sets for and add weight to that, maybe so you can lift it once with a spotter. Work on that until you can do it three to five times and then add weight again. New lifters will have serious growth during their first year (give or take) then they will see minimal weekly gains for the rest of their lifting life. You just need to figure out if you are on the initial gain period or plateaued. You get the odd freak that grows and grows, but they are very rare and most are not on that track.

[peter12]

Yes, the only time in my life I have been fairly muscular big was when I was progressively adding weight within safe parameters, but spending more effort on going all out instead of obsessively working on form.

I was 31, my squat was up to 300, deadlift was 380, and bench was around 240. The benefit from even pushing one rep just a little bit past your maximum is incredible.

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Over the years more and more research has been done on lifting weights, and there are always new programs coming out. Yet the strongest people in the gym are simply lifting more weight, pushing more, even with poor technique. I think kettle bells are a good example of how adding more and more muscles to a lift can be a good thing, the cheating in a weight room may actually be good, as long as it isn't something that will injure you.

Keep in mind any advice I give is for power lifting, getting bigger and stronger so that you can lift even more weight. The amount of people I have met in the gym offering advice that contradicts simply how to get stronger is staggering, almost like the book smarts interfere with lifting weights.

In my opinion, figure out what you can lift regular sets for and add weight to that, maybe so you can lift it once with a spotter. Work on that until you can do it three to five times and then add weight again. New lifters will have serious growth during their first year (give or take) then they will see minimal weekly gains for the rest of their lifting life. You just need to figure out if you are on the initial gain period or plateaued. You get the odd freak that grows and grows, but they are very rare and most are not on that track.

I can definitely see where you're coming from and what makes you say that but this is very bad advice.

The best lifters, the best runners, the best athletes, the best at anything physical are the ones who don't get hurt. Sustainability is one of the best predictors of performance.

Think about how many amazing hockey prospects never made the show because they got hurt. And I'm not talking 4 concussions in 2 months, I'm talking just a 'regular' long term injury. Maybe a high ankle sprain that cost them 3 months of development in their key stage. They lost 3 months, then the slow return to full form was another 3 months (more?), and there goes an entire season. They lost fitness, they lost speed, hands, confidence.

Again, I can see why you're saying what you are. The correlation is VERY strong. It's obvious that every single power lifter does what you're saying, because their entire sport is "cheating". They are using leverage and "cheats" to lift the heaviest weight possible. Beyond that, any body builder I've ever seen does 1/2 range of motion reps. And clearly that works.

But what you don't see is the COUNTLESS athletes who didn't make it, or who aren't operating at their full potential. Obviously your advice is key for a power lifter since "poor form" is the essence of the sport. Because of the cheating, however, the rate of injury in power lifters is extremely high.

Now take any study on epidemiology in power lifting with a HUGE grain of salt given that many people have "failed" becoming power lifters due to injury in the first place. What you're left with is the "survivors". They are already inherently more injury resilient because they're still lifting. And even then, that small study suggests 70% of them are injured at any one time.

Shifting to body building, the other problem is that weight lifting is accessible. Anyone can do it, and anyone can give advice on it. And it turns out trying to study strengthening and hypertrophy is extraordinarily hard because there are so many individual factors in what your potential as an athlete is. That's really hard to control for. So we're somehow left with half reppers, presumably because it's a bit of a default - it's "easier" to lift with poor form (and looks better with those heavy weights).

Lifting heavier with bad form will increase your risk of injuries. If you are injured you cannot get stronger or bigger. It really boils down to that.

Unless you are a power lifter, what you should be doing is leaving your ego at the door. Your goal should be to use the muscles of the desired lift in their full range of motion. For bench press, this means your lower back is flat on the bench, you're bringing the bar all the way down to your chest and all the way back up, and you're not using momentum. If you do this right, you will use much less weight. Less weight means less load on stabilizers and joints, those things that often get injured with lifting (rotator cuff and disc injuries are the most common I see).

My best example for why this is the right thing to do is treating achilles problems in runners. There are dozens of factors as to why they have an achilles tendinopathy, but a really common one is calf weakness. A common rebuttal when I tell my runners this is "but I run, my calves are super strong". Sure, in mid range where they're used. But then I get them to try full range, single leg, body weight heel raises off a step and the majority of them can't get past 20. "Normal" is 30. And turns out when they start strengthening their calf properly their achilles gets better as they are far better at dealing with the load of running.

Oh my god I'm still typing Another good example is cramping. Many people get hamstring, calf, and/or foot cramps. What you'll notice is these almost always occur when the muscle is in a shortened position (your covers pin your feet downward at night; you're trying a bridge exercise, etc). And sure, some people have nutritional deficiencies that lead to them, but the majority of cramping occurs because that muscle is weak in a shortened position and it's struggling to contract with a movement and over compensates and 'grabs'. Because you don't use it there ever. Unless you're doing full range of motion strengthening.

TLDR: your goal should be using the least amount of weight possible to still achieve adequate fatigue in the desired muscle.

Edit: I was typing so long it logged me out, yikes.

[Nage Waza]

Anyone can get injured, even with ‘perfect’ form.

I don’t believe there is perfect form, there are many excercises that we use in a weight room to target different muscles, some better than others. Over the years I have spent a lot of time in different gyms, the most powerful lifters were simply working harder. Adding more weight, eating a ton of protein and taking creatine are the three best pieces of advice I can give someone.

It really doesn’t matter which route you go, as the benefits are marginal and your own body can be the limiting factor.

I have read the literature and I can say based on my experience that loading with creatine for about a week and maintaining after that and going for 1.5 plus grams of protein per pound resulted in my biggest lifts, including three reps of more than double my body weight (I cut to 175). The literature would dispute all of that.

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Anyone can get injured, even with ‘perfect’ form.

I don’t believe there is perfect form, there are many excercises that we use in a weight room to target different muscles, some better than others. Over the years I have spent a lot of time in different gyms, the most powerful lifters were simply working harder. Adding more weight, eating a ton of protein and taking creatine are the three best pieces of advice I can give someone.

It really doesn’t matter which route you go, as the benefits are marginal and your own body can be the limiting factor.

I have read the literature and I can say based on my experience that loading with creatine for about a week and maintaining after that and going for 1.5 plus grams of protein per pound resulted in my biggest lifts, including three reps of more than double my body weight (I cut to 175). The literature would dispute all of that.

Thanks for the reminder as to why I absolutely despise talking about nutrition and lifting with anyone who doesn't understand science. They ignore the research and just say "ya bro, but I did this and got jacked!"

"Add more weight" is at the very least ignorant and at the most negligent. No one is ignoring the overload principle but when you're sacrificing form then you've lost sight of the entire point of lifting; health, strength, and longevity.

[peter12]

Actually some of the evidence seems to indicate that lifting technique doesn't mean nearly as much as people believe.

I think that in the end you are right that lifting weight until failure is just as effective.

https://www.painscience.com/articles...-your-back.php

[Nage Waza]

Ok dude, I think you are reaching. I never said to do something poorly or to injure yourself.

I think your post is what is ignorant here. Walk me through what I posted that is wrong. I have lifted weights for nearly 30 years and my experience is to put the book away and figure out what works for your body. We are all different.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by peter12

Actually some of the evidence seems to indicate that lifting technique doesn't mean nearly as much as people believe.

I think that in the end you are right that lifting weight until failure is just as effective.

https://www.painscience.com/articles...-your-back.php

That nails it. Keep lifting for your body type and eat somewhat correctly.

[blankall]

I've always been if the position that the spine is meant to move. Having a slight arch in your back isn't as dangerous as many people make it out to be. Unnaturally keeping the back in one position can also lead to injury.

Specifically there's a lot of lifters who advocate that a slightly rounded back during deadlifting is a stronger and more natural position, and arching the back in is there much bigger worry.

[Nage Waza]

My spine certainly isn't straight either, so I lift in a way that works for me. I do a pretty textbook bench press, but walk out with a pump in my arms and not my chest. The only way I feel it in my chest is when I go heavy (250ish). I will go with a few reps with a plate, move to a few reps of 205, then straight to 250. I would go straight there, but I still feel like the lower weights are my warm up, but I don't actually feel like I need it.

A really good example in variability is the easy bar, some people can curl a straight bar yet other people will destroy their wrists, so they must use the easy bar. Some people can lift weights their whole lives and literally barely grow.

[OMG!WTF!]

There's definitely a lot more to lifting than lifting heavy. Working harder vs working smarter. Just adding weight every day is obviously not going to work. Check out that Netflix Documentary about Ronnie Coleman.



Creating the right variety of isometric, concentric, eccentric, movements matter more than weight. And lifting with the proper focus on the muscle is likely the most important. I'm not trying to be a know it all because this stuff seems to change all the time. But just piling on weight is not legit at all.

[Nage Waza]

Piling on weight is legit, in fact that is all we are talking about. Go do a workout with no weights at all, and tell me how you are doing.

Do your workout, keep it pretty simple and basic, add weight over time. That is pretty much it. There is an assortment of tried and true lifts, stick to those, and maybe one day look up isometric, concentric, and try one out for fun.

Debating protein before or after, creatine morning or night, is all pretty much nonsense. Studies are hard to come to a good conclusion, and if they do, they show minor differences that do not account for each individual in the study.

Come work out with me (or any other lifter) and you will get bigger and stronger (because they will make you go five or so times a week). Mind you, I am walking around at 190 and am not tall (just about 5' 8), my workout is not the same for anyone else. A good trainer will design a workout that is focused on that person, but at the end of the day, the most important factor is showing up and getting the workout done, and basics around protein consumption. Pretty much everything else may or may not add to much difference in all, compared to just getting the workout done.

Look at calories. You must either consume less calories then you consume to lose weight, it is as simple as that. This should not be measured in a single day (although you can), but should instead be looked at over a longer time period. The weight room is a bit different, how much you build muscle is a product of the work you put in (minus the fact that the human body for assorted reasons do not all react the same way to lifting). Everything else matters WAY less, including nutrition. Want a basketball physique? Play basketball or follow a basketball strength program. Want to get bigger? Lift bigger.

Your end goal should be based on the type of body you can successfully build towards, not everyone is the same. I won't ever be a tall lanky guy, but can be a stocky build.

I don't think Coleman or steroid use is subject matter in this thread as that goes way beyond acceptable advice.

[OMG!WTF!]

Do your workout, keep it pretty simple and basic, add weight over time. That is pretty much it. There is an assortment of tried and true lifts, stick to those, and maybe one day look up isometric, concentric, and try one out for fun.

There's so much more to it. Volume is just as important as weight. Doing the same thing but heavier is inferior to a well managed variety of lifts, weights and durations. I'd post a bunch of info for you but it's all there if you want to figure it out.

[Robo]

I am finding I am starting to lean more towards a plant based diet I still like meat but there seems to be alot of plant based meals I am incorporating into my diet now I found edamame spaghetti the stuff is incredible 1 85gram serving has 280 calories 31 grams of carbs with 20grams being fiber it works out to 70 percent of your daily fiber all this while having 36grams of protein and a ton of potassium iron and magnesium

[blankall]

In terms of weight, different people will respond to different workouts. Some require heavy lifting to gain weight and size. Others will make progress from being under a load for longer periods.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by blankall

In terms of weight, different people will respond to different workouts. Some require heavy lifting to gain weight and size. Others will make progress from being under a load for longer periods.

Yes, agreed. When I was adding weight, I gained a lot of muscle quickly but I eventually stopped due to repeated injuries of my joints.

I have done far better since pursuing endurance training - lighter loads lifted more times and at a certain pace.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

There's so much more to it. Volume is just as important as weight. Doing the same thing but heavier is inferior to a well managed variety of lifts, weights and durations. I'd post a bunch of info for you but it's all there if you want to figure it out.

Volume and weight are two different things, I don't understand your point. Neither is more important than the other: Zero volume of 500 pounds is still zero. There are certainly different strategies you would bring into a workout plan regarding reps, sets and ultimately weight. Increase the weight and typically you would see a reduction in reps. Or go with a high rep workout...but I don't see any gains from that. Endurance training is certainly the route of high rep training. Both are very important, but I am focused on strength.

Unless there is something I missed here, but what is inferior? We haven't even written out a workout and something is worse?

[wwkayaker]

Originally Posted by peter12

Yes, agreed. When I was adding weight, I gained a lot of muscle quickly but I eventually stopped due to repeated injuries of my joints.

I have done far better since pursuing endurance training - lighter loads lifted more times and at a certain pace.

There is a good chance the injuries were related to lifting heavy with poor form.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by peter12

Yes, agreed. When I was adding weight, I gained a lot of muscle quickly but I eventually stopped due to repeated injuries of my joints.

I have done far better since pursuing endurance training - lighter loads lifted more times and at a certain pace.

Originally Posted by wwkayaker

There is a good chance the injuries were related to lifting heavy with poor form.

Be better, Peter.

[TSXCman]

I'm 3 weeks into a 5x5 strong lift routine. Off liquor, taking supplements, and eating 1800 calories a day ( o cook lots). Right now I'm 32, 5'9, 180lbs, and carrying too much fat around my stomach, chest, and under arms.

Does this seem like the right track to stay on? Goal would be to reduce body fat and gain muscle for injury prevention and self esteem.

It is refreshing to feel sore from starting to work out so far. I will mix in snowboarding and biking going forward, as the seasons permit.