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Old 11-27-2019, 04:13 PM   #41
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Well there is now a lot of daylight between Babcock and Peters. Babcock comes off an a**hole that was very successful, he will probably get another job.

Peters so far could be a rascist and possibly physically abused his players. On top of that his career has been a mixed bag. He is probably done.
This. Its not even like you can say he is a good coach. I dont think I would be falling over myself to hire this guy.
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Old 11-27-2019, 04:13 PM   #42
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I think the line is this:

Criticism of play = Good (That was a terrible pass. That was a lazy backcheck, that play in the corner was too soft, you have to go in harder than that.)

Criticism of person = Bad (you suck, you're lazy, you're a p**sy).

Yes, you really can't critize the player on a you level


Ie


You're soft and you're lazy and frankly you suck, now get out of my face and sit on the bench = bad


You did this and this and you were jogging on pursuit, we need way more from you, we need a better effort from you and you certainly need to work harder on your game. I'm giving that kid your spot because he's earned that opportunity = better
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Old 11-27-2019, 04:33 PM   #43
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Good. It’s time for a change. Get the bullies away from coaching.

I had some brilliant hockey coaches growing up but there was one horrible midget coach whose bullying still sticks with me. His way of creating team unity was to lead the entire team in bullying one of the quieter team members, which happened to be me. This was the typical stuff you’d get in the high school lunch room 20 years ago made much worse by coming from an authority figure. He’d also hold me to a higher standard of play and I was always being made an example of in practice. Once when I was suspended he made me take face off stats (no one else had to do this) and after the game ripped into me for their accuracy. Oh and when I separated my shoulder I was accused of milking it.

This took a lot of fun out of hockey and really strained relationships with teammates I had considered good friends. Another incident I remember was having my teammates hide my towel when I was in the shower which led to me fist fighting a teammate naked. Of course this just lead to additional bullying.

Considering this was the freaking Blackfoot Chiefs and I was a middle class straight white teen I can only imagine the horrors players at higher levels with actual differences had to face. Get these ####### coaches out of the game.
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Old 11-27-2019, 04:55 PM   #44
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So is that guy in jail now? Using pain or physical punishment as teaching methods for young kids is against the law is it not? I thought only parents or guardians could inflict corporal punishment.
No idea. We pulled our son. Met other families at the new dojo who had too. I expect there's some kind of grey area around physical 'correction' for a sport like karate. But we felt that sensei crossed the line.

There were also a couple times when our son came home with blood on his gi from being kicked in the face by older kids during unsupervised sparring. I understand learning stoicism is part of karate, but it was too much for us. Our son's much happier in the new dojo.
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Old 11-27-2019, 06:45 PM   #45
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Thank you to the Tens of thousands of great coaches now and prior.
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Old 11-27-2019, 06:58 PM   #46
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There have always been these stories.

Remember Kevin Constantine once made his junior team takes 4 hour bus ride in their equipment?
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Old 11-27-2019, 07:22 PM   #47
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There have always been these stories.

Remember Kevin Constantine once made his junior team takes 4 hour bus ride in their equipment?
Obviously he was mad at himself to sit in that stink for 4 hours.
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Old 11-27-2019, 09:29 PM   #48
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It will be interesting how this ages from 5 years ago:
http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/...198/story.html

There is no question that Sutter was a hardass. Hardass means different things to different people and different tolerance levels...and different experiences growing through the rise to the league. Chances are a lot of the guys in the NHL had coaches at some level who were more extreme then others, and some who's eyes were opened when they got to the NHL.


Doughty, even though Darryl helped him win the Stanley Cup, had nothing but bad things to say when he left. I have a feeling that may eventually may be expanded on by him, especially with Carcillio starting his attack on Darryl.

A lot of Flames didn't have great things to say (rather, said little at all) after the 2004 run on Sutter, but motivational tactics, if they are successful, both individually and for the team are more accepted and part of the "cost" of winning. The buttons pushed and strings pulled on each of the players as Warrener mentioned would not pass public consumption then, and certainly not now.
But, reading players, figuring out what makes them tick or get fired up to get that extra out of them one way or another, is part of what a successful coach can do. As that line differs between each player...but it's why Sutter got hired in LA and it worked. But some don't like the notion of those mind games or manipulation to get something extra out of a player, whether it be physical or emotional


And Sutter being a hardass doesn't mean he was over the line, (again, over the line means different things for players who have different points of reference) Selanne had some great stories how Darryl's tough love kept him grounded in SJ and made him a better player for many more years.

Guys like Lydman from 2004 will have opposite feelings of those of Warrener. It's a matter of who is going to come out and share their experiences, and then those who may counter those experiences with ones of their own.

The acceptability threshold for button pushing varies greatly amongst and betweem players and coaches alike, is my guess.

Last edited by browna; 11-27-2019 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 11-27-2019, 09:37 PM   #49
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Ference is quoted as saying there were “crazy stories”. Sounds like he was being coy. He’s a guy I’d like to hear from. IIRC he’s pretty intelligent and sometimes not shy from speaking his mind.
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Old 11-27-2019, 09:38 PM   #50
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Old 11-27-2019, 09:48 PM   #51
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https://twitter.com/user/status/1199911538531815424

https://twitter.com/user/status/1199912304243957760
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Old 11-27-2019, 09:57 PM   #52
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I don't think there was any doubt that Hartley basically used the whip and never really put it away. Sarich wasn't a fan, knows that first hand and I believe was quoted as such. Blair Jones another, after a public spat at practice.

It's effective if you have the right guys with the right mental makeup, but even if it does work it has a limited shelf life...which is why himself and Keenan, as examples, didn't have a job for years prior (or playoff success for even longer prior) or have had a job since coaching here.
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Old 11-27-2019, 10:01 PM   #53
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I don’t have a lot of time for Sven, but that’s rough. I wonder though, if he appreciates it being told by someone else.
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Old 11-27-2019, 11:29 PM   #54
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This may not be popular but does anyone else find this all a little weird? Easy to get on board with rejecting racism and or physical or sexual abuse, but when you start to get into verbal abuse... I dunno. That can be pretty subjective sometimes. And some of these stories Carcillo is quoting are.. weakening his intent I think. Oh your coach benched you? Okay... sorry I just really struggle to see how that is “abuse” at high level hockey. In fact, professional level hockey. And quite frankly, you aren’t even being paid to play in the CHL really other than stocking up years of potential secondary education so hard to see how it’s worth putting up with bull#### if it was really that bad. Really think this is a completely different lens than a young player on the verge of making millions at the NHL level and justifying abuse for that. Other players on Carcillos feed were saying they weren’t getting enough ice time (wtf? So?).

Each situation has its own complex circumstances and context but we need to be wary about, as a society moving to a place where we all just feel like victims constantly about everything. Yes there are lines that should not be crossed but as with everything, reality and pragmatism probably lies somewhere in between here with this so called “movement”. For the OP to be literally losing sleep over this “issue” is slightly bizarre to me.

Bad things happen to people every single day but now that bullying is being highlighted in relation to hockey we are all supposed to care even more about it than we otherwise didn’t? I dunno. Just some random thoughts I guess.
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Old 11-28-2019, 10:03 AM   #55
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I don't think there was any doubt that Hartley basically used the whip and never really put it away. Sarich wasn't a fan, knows that first hand and I believe was quoted as such. Blair Jones another, after a public spat at practice.

It's effective if you have the right guys with the right mental makeup, but even if it does work it has a limited shelf life...which is why himself and Keenan, as examples, didn't have a job for years prior (or playoff success for even longer prior) or have had a job since coaching here.
My neighbor is coached by Blair Jones on the Battleford AAA Stars this year. He really likes him as a coach, and has been thriving as a first year player with them. Says nothing but good things about him, and appreciates Blair's approach.
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Old 11-28-2019, 10:25 AM   #56
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OB remembering how Bob Hartley made Sven Baertschi cry as we spoke of bullying coaches. Also, a hilarious convo w/ @jarretstoll.
Total aside but that was sort of a jarring segue.
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Old 11-28-2019, 10:29 AM   #57
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There was a lot of chatter regarding Hartley and Baertschi at the time. I remember Baertschi's girlfriend (now wife) liking and retweeting a bunch of stuff that showed Hartley in negative light while he was still on the team.
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Old 11-28-2019, 10:29 AM   #58
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Wow, well said!
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Old 11-28-2019, 10:47 AM   #59
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This may not be popular but does anyone else find this all a little weird? Easy to get on board with rejecting racism and or physical or sexual abuse, but when you start to get into verbal abuse... I dunno. That can be pretty subjective sometimes. And some of these stories Carcillo is quoting are.. weakening his intent I think. Oh your coach benched you? Okay... sorry I just really struggle to see how that is “abuse” at high level hockey. In fact, professional level hockey. And quite frankly, you aren’t even being paid to play in the CHL really other than stocking up years of potential secondary education so hard to see how it’s worth putting up with bull#### if it was really that bad. Really think this is a completely different lens than a young player on the verge of making millions at the NHL level and justifying abuse for that. Other players on Carcillos feed were saying they weren’t getting enough ice time (wtf? So?).

Each situation has its own complex circumstances and context but we need to be wary about, as a society moving to a place where we all just feel like victims constantly about everything. Yes there are lines that should not be crossed but as with everything, reality and pragmatism probably lies somewhere in between here with this so called “movement”. For the OP to be literally losing sleep over this “issue” is slightly bizarre to me.

Bad things happen to people every single day but now that bullying is being highlighted in relation to hockey we are all supposed to care even more about it than we otherwise didn’t? I dunno. Just some random thoughts I guess.
I agree that it is subjective especially as an adult, but there isn't a need to be verbally abusive when coaching kids.

I was in a different sport, but I remember vividly to this day the verbal bullying and mocking a coach put me through as a teenager in front of my teammates. it was humiliating.
it ruined my desire to play the game, affected my attitude as a player and teammate and I ended up quitting the sport and not playing it for many years as the joy of the game was gone.

didn't help that in those times I couldn't go to my dad. he was old school too, and would have added to it by thinking I was just being a p***y, and I must have done something to deserve it.

so anyway, I'm sensitive to anyone, even a pro being subjected to verbal abuse as a coaching tool.
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Old 11-28-2019, 10:53 AM   #60
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No idea. We pulled our son. Met other families at the new dojo who had too. I expect there's some kind of grey area around physical 'correction' for a sport like karate. But we felt that sensei crossed the line.

There were also a couple times when our son came home with blood on his gi from being kicked in the face by older kids during unsupervised sparring. I understand learning stoicism is part of karate, but it was too much for us. Our son's much happier in the new dojo.
My first bad feeling about my kid's dojo was that it was called Cobra Kai.

Then there was this:

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