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Old 11-26-2020, 07:49 PM   #1761
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They were 1-3 with Dak starting. If he was elite he would have won a lot more games surrounded by all the talent he's had to work with as Rogers and Wilson have won with much less surrounding talent on offense. I'm really hoping for him to get Mahomes money though because I enjoy seeing Jones never winning another Super Bowl.
Yeah, I agree. I mean clearly Dak is better than Dalton, but with a full season of each you're talking about the difference between an 8-8, 7-9 type of team with Dak to a 6-10 type of team with Dalton. It's a clear difference but it's not a night and day one.

I too hope Dak gets overpaid though, that'd be hiliarious.
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Old 11-26-2020, 08:39 PM   #1762
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I don't think Dak is elite and wasn't suggesting it. I just thought it was funny that when Dalton signed the hot take was if he got a chance he would show that put any average QB in that offense and they'll do well, and that it would hurt Dak's potential long term deal. I think it's fair to say Dak has probably earned a bit more with the Cowboys performance without him (ignore the record, their offense is putrid even with all the weapons). If it's worked out bad for Dak in any way it's that they've been so poor the Cowboys could have a chance to draft a QB.
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Old 11-27-2020, 03:11 AM   #1763
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The offense isnt great for sure and should be better than it is with the personnel they have but that Dallas defense is the bigger problem by a mile.

They are on pace to give up the 2nd most points in NFL history. There is nothing that Dak or Tom Brady in his prime could be doing to change that a whole lot.
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Old 11-27-2020, 08:33 AM   #1764
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Once Elliott got paid, he turned into an average back. This team was crap even with Prescott throwing for big yards, they cant use that as an excuse. They will likely finish last in the power that is the NFC East.
It's not just Elliott. There's mounting evidence showing that once a star running back becomes eligible for free agency the best course of action is to move on from them and draft a replacement. Teams almost always end up paying for past performance when signing these guys in free agency. I think Elliott may have another good year or two in him but his best days are probably behind him.

https://www.thefantasyfootballers.co...tasy-football/
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Old 11-27-2020, 10:08 AM   #1765
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it's just not a position worth spending big bucks on. Not only will those backs usually regress after their rookie contracts, but you can also find very capable running backs every year in the mid rounds in the draft. Antonio Gibson was a 3rd round pick this year, looks incredible. Jacksonville might be the craziest example though, they have found found an absolute gem in a UDFA (James Robinson) who gives them more than a 4th overall pick did (Fournette). Not every mid or late round RB will pan out and giving up star RBs might sting a bit, but in general it seems you can replace most of that production pretty easily.

which team invested heavily in a running back and didn't regret that contract two years later? Must be a short list.
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Old 11-27-2020, 10:12 AM   #1766
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Have we reached the point where RB is the least valuable position in the league? We have to be pretty close if not. I've said before I'd rather have an elite kicker than an elite RB, but maybe I'd also rather have an elite punter over an elite RB too? The punter one is a conundrum because of course you would ideally rarely use your punter. But if you had like the Justin Tucker of punters who could pin the opponent inside the 10 almost every time? That is definitely more valuable than an elite RB.
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Old 11-27-2020, 10:18 AM   #1767
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Have we reached the point where RB is the least valuable position in the league? We have to be pretty close if not. I've said before I'd rather have an elite kicker than an elite RB, but maybe I'd also rather have an elite punter over an elite RB too? The punter one is a conundrum because of course you would ideally rarely use your punter. But if you had like the Justin Tucker of punters who could pin the opponent inside the 10 almost every time? That is definitely more valuable than an elite RB.
I dunno, I see what Seattle turns into when their backs get hurt and I think having a good running game is pretty essential for a lot of teams.

And then I think, "well, maybe you just need "good", and paying for "great" is a waste of money", but then you look at what Henry, Cook and Kamara are able to do for their teams and it does actually seem like a pretty good thing to have.

It's not that it's not important to have a good running game, it's that trying to pay for one in free agency is extremely risky in terms of actually getting what you're expecting to get. That's how it seems to me, at least.
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Old 11-27-2020, 10:23 AM   #1768
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Have we reached the point where RB is the least valuable position in the league? We have to be pretty close if not. I've said before I'd rather have an elite kicker than an elite RB, but maybe I'd also rather have an elite punter over an elite RB too? The punter one is a conundrum because of course you would ideally rarely use your punter. But if you had like the Justin Tucker of punters who could pin the opponent inside the 10 almost every time? That is definitely more valuable than an elite RB.
Cleveland's MVPs this year are Chubb, Ward and Garrett. The O/L is much improved - do they have longer productive careers than RBs?
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Old 11-27-2020, 10:26 AM   #1769
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you'll find a lot more offensive linemen with long productive careers than running backs, that's for sure. Browns are a good example actually, Joe Thomas gave them a decade of excellent service. How many RBs in all of football can you think of in the last years that had a decade of productivity? Adrian Peterson maybe?
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Old 11-27-2020, 10:29 AM   #1770
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A pass catching RB is still quite valuable. Darren Sproles was an all-purpose back for a decade.

That's a weakness in Elliott's game. (or the play calling is crap)
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Old 11-27-2020, 10:40 AM   #1771
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But when you look at how offenses have evolved in the last 10 years, the short passing game and jet sweeps and things like that have essentially replaced everything but running between the tackles. Ball control is not really an effective weapon anymore in a world where a team like the Chiefs can score 21 points in 10 minutes or less. Offensive football has become quicker than ever. Three yards and a cloud of dust is a relic of the past.

A running back who can catch definitely is important, but you don't need to pay big for that. The Patriots had a dynasty with Kevin Faulk, Danny Woodhead, Dion Lewis, and James White as pass catchers out of the backfield. Good coaching can scheme average players open, even if great players could make those 5 yard catches 8 yard catches. But outside QB the bulk of a team's cap should go to the trenches, and the outside positions (WR/CB).
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Old 11-27-2020, 10:43 AM   #1772
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also, we've just seen in Cincinnati what can happen if you don't invest in a quality OL. Being great in the trenches is a necessity in today's game, having a great RB isn't.
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Old 11-27-2020, 10:49 AM   #1773
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We talk about Zeke being washed, and maybe he is, but it's also not a coincidence his effectiveness started to fall off right at the same time as the Cowboys OLine got old/hurt a lot. Elite trench play can almost overcome mediocre QB play (see last year's 49ers, or the 2017 Jaguars).
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Old 11-27-2020, 12:02 PM   #1774
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Have we reached the point where RB is the least valuable position in the league? We have to be pretty close if not. I've said before I'd rather have an elite kicker than an elite RB, but maybe I'd also rather have an elite punter over an elite RB too? The punter one is a conundrum because of course you would ideally rarely use your punter. But if you had like the Justin Tucker of punters who could pin the opponent inside the 10 almost every time? That is definitely more valuable than an elite RB.
I don't agree as it's based on the type of offense a team runs. In pass happy offenses I feel it's less valuable but some teams still feature the run to set up the pass. Where would the Titans be without Henry? I feel Josh Jacobs individual efforts has led more directly to wins for the Raiders than Mack ever did. The issue with the position is longevity. Most RB's that come into the league as rookies and take on heavy workloads are nearly spent by the time they reach free agency. Le'Veon Bell was arguably the best back in the league a few years back and he's pretty well done today. Pollard has been better that Elliott this season and politics are limiting his carries but a savvy organization would focus more on retaining their top QB and WR before RB and of course Jones did the exact opposite and the reality is that Elliott is on the downside of his career and has a contract that has a lot of dead money attached for the next three seasons.
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Old 11-27-2020, 12:26 PM   #1775
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I think one of the big things about running backs is scheming can do wonders for a RB. Kyle Shanahan is almost universally recognized as the best run schemer in the game. Could he do better with a Kamara or McCaffrey or Dalvin? Probably, but given the cost of a Kamara or McCaffrey he can have another elite OL player who can also help in the passing game, while plugging in whoever at RB. If I had a McCaffrey for instance, I would look to line him up in the slot on a lot of snaps because he is so good as a receiver. It feels like wasting him to just throw to him exclusively out of the backfield.

But you mention the Titans, and yeah where would they be without Henry? But, at the same time where are they even with him? Basically looking like first round fodder unless Tannehill has his Flacco moment. Their defense isn't very good either, and if you're gonna have a crap defense having a running game is almost a bad thing to go with a crap defense because you're more likely than not going to need to score a lot, and the running game is the most inefficient way to score points. Even the Raiders this year are moving forward because Carr has improved. Jacobs is putting up much worse numbers this year than last on a per carry basis, but it doesn't matter to their success.

Chiefs almost won a Super Bowl in 2018 with just Mahomes. Now he's special, but having a great running game only really matters if you have a good defense too. Otherwise you're kinda like the Ravens, once you fall behind any appreciable amount you are in big trouble because your margin for error is basically none at that point. Even in that AFC Title Game Mahomes didn't do much for the first three quarters, then dropped 24 points in one quarter. No run based team could be expected to do that.
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Old 11-27-2020, 12:52 PM   #1776
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Steelers-Ravens pushed back to Tuesday.

Ravens-Cowboys then likely pushed back from Thursday to Sunday or Monday.
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Old 11-27-2020, 01:00 PM   #1777
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I get they can't forfeit because of the PA, but the Ravens should just use the first play of the game and take a safety, and then have the teams kneel out the game for a 2-0 Steelers win. It's gonna be a massacre for the Steelers, this way the players save some gas/avoid some COVID.
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Old 11-27-2020, 01:08 PM   #1778
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also, we've just seen in Cincinnati what can happen if you don't invest in a quality OL. Being great in the trenches is a necessity in today's game, having a great RB isn't.
I'm still depressed about that. He's fun to watch, but every game you could just tell that OL was going to get him killed. I had the same wincing issue whenever he was about to get hit like I do when I watch Alex Smith get sacked.

Cincinnati better invest heavily in OL going forward to protect their investment, if they haven't destroyed it already. Praying he comes back ok, and doesn't see the same post-injury drop-off like a Carson Wentz.
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Old 11-27-2020, 03:09 PM   #1779
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Is the Ravens COVID outbreak due to not following the rules, or is it just COVID doing it's thing?
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Old 11-27-2020, 03:11 PM   #1780
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Is the Ravens COVID outbreak due to not following the rules, or is it just COVID doing it's thing?
there's been reports about a conditioning coach who didn't report symptoms and didn't wear a mask at all times. Tough to say if that caused the outbreak, but either way, it's not a good look.

then again, it's just an ####### of a virus. Steelers themselves had to place 3 players on the Covid list today.
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