Matthew Tkachuk & Johnny Gaudreau Signing Watch Thread

[Strange Brew]

As nervous as I am about Gaudreau not yet being signed, you have to wonder if he would be having the same season if he had signed an extension over the summer.

Playing out your contract year doesn't just benefit the player and in this regard, I don't mind Treliving's patience.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Funnily enough, IIRC dissentowner swore up and down at the time that there was no way Tavares was leaving the Islanders via free agency either.

Correct. It happened once, Tavares is the exception, not the rule in cases like this.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Correct. It happened once, Tavares is the exception, not the rule in cases like this.

Even the most insider of hockey insiders are wrong more often than they're right. You're not suggesting your some hockey sage are you?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

Even the most insider of hockey insiders are wrong more often than they're right. You're not suggesting your some hockey sage are you?

*you’re

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

The bolded is a total strawman. We don't know what he is doing so people are basing their opinions on what has been accomplished to date, simple as that.

It is not a straw man - it is literally what some people have said. You’ve read the posts. You’re right, we don’t know what he’s doing. So people saying that are making stuff up, not me.

And the past? We know Treliving not only tried to trade Brodie, he had a deal in place. And you tell me what other UFAs he let walk when he didn;t want to, or had some better option. Are we really fussed about Hamonic?

Gio wasn’t a UFA, so that one is irrelevant. Still, it worked out for the best.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

*you’re

lol, got me. This is baby sh*t, GTFO

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

lol, got me. This is baby sh*t, GTFO

It was on par with the rest of your material.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It was on par with the rest of your material.

Sure bud

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I say just sit back, relax, and enjoy the season. Players sometimes become free agents. It's not a Flames thing or a Treliving thing. There is absolutely nothing unique about this situation. The team will just have to adapt with the cards they get dealt. This is something that every team has to deal with, especially teams that actually have players that are worth a damn. You can't trade them when the team is competitive just because you are afraid they will walk. Teams that do that are always in a constant rebuild and never achieve anything.

Great post.

Islanders lost Tavares for nothing, Leafs lost Hyman for nothing, Sharks lost Pavelski for nothing, blues lost Pietroangelo for nothing, Blue Jackets lost Panarin, Ducshene, Bobrovsky for nothing.....

Should the Predators trade Forsberg? I mean, he tweeted that thumbs down emoticon when Arvidsson was dealt. Seems to me it's all but certain he's gone.

[TOfan]

Gio has it right here.

The Flames weren't going to trade Brodie headed into his UFA off season, or at least not for a futures based rental like package. The team was one year removed from their second best regular season ever and, I would bet, had full intentions of making the playoffs again. So, I would say that trading one, or two, of their top 4 D was unlikely to happen at the TDL.

Clearly Treliving knew the risk and was prepared to take it. In any event, I would have a hard time being convinced the Flames would be better today with Brodie instead of Tanev.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Gio has it right here.

The Flames weren't going to trade Brodie headed into his UFA off season, or at least not for a futures based rental like package. The team was one year removed from their second best regular season ever and, I would bet, had full intentions of making the playoffs again. So, I would say that trading one, or two, of their top 4 D was unlikely to happen at the TDL.

Clearly Treliving knew the risk and was prepared to take it. In any event, I would have a hard time being convinced the Flames would be better today with Brodie instead of Tanev.

People don’t seem to realize that if you sign Brodie, you probably don’t get Tanev, or at least it’s pretty darn hard to make it work (and it would make the present Gaudreau/Tkachuk issues even harder if you did).

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

People don’t seem to realize that if you sign Brodie, you probably don’t get Tanev, or at least it’s pretty darn hard to make it work (and it would make the present Gaudreau/Tkachuk issues even harder if you did).

If Brodie was signed, I think it’s pretty much a zero chance they even talk to Tanev. He was clearly his replacement.

Cap space has a ton of value. Losing Brodie “ for nothing” was indeed no big deal.

[jaydub74]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

If Brodie was signed, I think it’s pretty much a zero chance they even talk to Tanev. He was clearly his replacement.

Cap space has a ton of value. Losing Brodie “ for nothing” was indeed no big deal.

I didn’t read this entire thread but if memory serves me correct Broadie was injured at the time of the deadline. Can you trade an injured player?

I agree that cap space has value, I think the loss here is the fact the didn’t trade him for picks. Could have had Tanev and some magic beans.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I say just sit back, relax, and enjoy the season. Players sometimes become free agents. It's not a Flames thing or a Treliving thing. There is absolutely nothing unique about this situation. The team will just have to adapt with the cards they get dealt. This is something that every team has to deal with, especially teams that actually have players that are worth a damn. You can't trade them when the team is competitive just because you are afraid they will walk. Teams that do that are always in a constant rebuild and never achieve anything.

Actually, teams that properly manage their assets stay away from the rebuild scenario. Sure, there are teams that lose players to free agency, but many times that is by choice because they have the players in their system that can step in and help absorb the loss. The Flames are NOT one of those teams. This team is pretty asset poor and does not have a single prospect to step in and backfill the loss of one of their top line players. Gaudreau walks away and a gaping hole in the team is exposed. The Flames need to manage this situation extremely carefully, otherwise it sets the team back for years.

Originally Posted by TOfan

Islanders lost Tavares for nothing,

I'm not sure that is a very good example to use. The Islanders did everything humanly possible to resign Tavares and were not expecting him to leave. They were extremely disappointed when he left and it did leave a significant hole in their team. They survived for a couple of seasons, but now they are being exposed for not having the talent to back up that loss. Mange that situation right and they would have had some more bodies in the pipeline that could be helping a struggling team right now.

Leafs lost Hyman for nothing,

Not even remotely close to the same level of player. Zach Hyman is middle tier player that you should be able to easily backfill. Every team should have a potential Zach Hyman or two in the system. Losing Hyman is akin to the Flames losing Mangiapane for nothing. It hurts, but you should have a player of that level in the system at any given time. He isn't a star player and you shouldn't have as many concerns about that level of loss. I still think the smart move is to manage those assets accordingly and make sure you never lose anything of value for nothing, but that's my philosophy. I'd rather see the team be self-sustaining rather than have major ebbs and flows in performance.

Sharks lost Pavelski for nothing, blues lost Pietroangelo for nothing,

Sharks did lose Pavelski, but he was an older player where the risk of resigning him was substantial. He was going to be a 35 year old and was still looking for big money, taking $7M per season from the Stars. The Sharks made the right decision IMO, as Pavelski went from scoring 38 goals and 64 points to 14 goals and 31 points the following season. Pavelski was NOT their leading scorer or best player, so the potential loss and return was marginal. This is one of those free agency losses that you actually don't think twice about as the player was heading into a retirement decline.

Pietroangelo was a situation like Tavares, where the Blues were not expecting him to walk. They tabled a number of deals and did everything they could to keep Pietroangelo in the fold. When he did walk, they went out and grabbed Torey Krug to replace him. The loss of Pietroangelo was also minimized when the Blues did some good succession planning and used the loss of Bouwmeester's salary to sign Faulk, having another top talent on the blueline to make the loss not quite as impactful. Then when the big salary walked, they backfilled it with a capable player in Krug. The loss of Pietroangelo was still substantial, but good asset management by the Blues made that bearable.

Blue Jackets lost Panarin, Ducshene, Bobrovsky for nothing.....

And look at the state of that organization. What a gong show.

Should the Predators trade Forsberg? I mean, he tweeted that thumbs down emoticon when Arvidsson was dealt. Seems to me it's all but certain he's gone.

Yes, they should. The writing is on the wall. Try and make a hockey trade.
Get something for him to keep the team chugging along. They're about to feel the pinch from the failed 2018 draft, so a lateral move or some prospects/picks may be beneficial long term. They should have a succession plan in place to deal with the potential loss of Forsberg, so they should execute it.

Originally Posted by The Cobra

If Brodie was signed, I think it’s pretty much a zero chance they even talk to Tanev. He was clearly his replacement.

That's pretty much a lateral move. One player in, one player out. If you knew Brodie was not in the plans, then deal him and have the assets from that deal as a bonus. Tanev + two prospects is better than Tanev alone.

Cap space has a ton of value. Losing Brodie “ for nothing” was indeed no big deal.

Cap space only has value if you use it. The Flames are sitting on cap space. Is that really helping right now? No. The same holes exist. Sure, the Flames have some cap space to address it, but Treliving can't seem to make a deal to use that space.

Losing Brodie for nothing was another mistake in Treliving's reign of error. Sure, we were able to grab Tanev, but the loss of Brodie really hurt Giordano and made him a lot less effective, to the point where the team decided to not protect him and instead protect Tanev, a player many thought would be exposed in the expansion draft. I'm not suggesting the Flames should have resigned Brodie - I was happy they didn't - but they did make a mistake in not dealing him for assets when it was obvious he was an after thought in their signings. The Flames signed Tanev when Brodie was still available, so that should give you an idea where they ranked Brodie on their priorities list. This was a missed opportunity to recoup assets.

Bottom line here is Treliving should have had a deal in place with Gaudreau before his NTC kicked in, or had a trade in place. Gaudreau is a player the Flames cannot replace from within. The Flames are a one line team and are facing losing the play driver on that line for nothing. The hole that will leave in the roster is obvious and inexcusable. The team should have a succession plan in place for every player on the roster and know exactly what they are going to need in return to replace that player. They should know where the line in the sand is, and what conditions force their hand. There is the problem. I don't think Treliving has such plans to deal with succession and potential loss. It's why the Flames have been and will continue to be a middling team. Losing Gaudreau for nothing moves this team from middling into bottom feeder status, now and for the foreseeable future.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Gio has it right here.

The Flames weren't going to trade Brodie headed into his UFA off season, or at least not for a futures based rental like package. The team was one year removed from their second best regular season ever and, I would bet, had full intentions of making the playoffs again. So, I would say that trading one, or two, of their top 4 D was unlikely to happen at the TDL.

Clearly Treliving knew the risk and was prepared to take it. In any event, I would have a hard time being convinced the Flames would be better today with Brodie instead of Tanev.

That is the concern with Gaudreau. Treliving bringing Sutter in was an all-in move and when he couldn’t get the return he wanted for Johnny he has no other choice but to keep him and try and sign him but ultimately risk losing him for nothing.

Difference here is there is no Tanev equivalent up front that the Flames will replace Johnny with this summer.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

That is the concern with Gaudreau. Treliving bringing Sutter in was an all-in move and when he couldn’t get the return he wanted for Johnny he has no other choice but to keep him and try and sign him but ultimately risk losing him for nothing.

Difference here is there is no Tanev equivalent up front that the Flames will replace Johnny with this summer.

So you are saying he shopped Gaudreau over the summer?

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by transplant99

So you are saying he shopped Gaudreau over the summer?

I am making an assumption but when he came out at the end of last season and said they needed to make some big changes to the core I suspect he shopped or at least talked deal with a few different teams on almost all of his players.

Brad has talked about changes since they lost in the bubble and has been making those changes exclusively through the free agent market. I don’t think that was plan A.

[bubbsy]

I've basically resigned myself to believing gaudreau will be signing here. If not, it's going to be very very hard on the organization.

[Jason14h]

Loosing elite players in Free Agency in the (relative) prime of their careers is not ok. There is no way to replace them in free agency. There are maybe 50 elite type talents in the NHL. They don't come around often

This is evident that in the last decade very few teams have lost an elite FA in their prime. Teams do not let this happen.

However - It is also unacceptable to trade an elite player in their prime for picks and prospects unless you are in full rebuild mode and this player wont be in their prime when you are ready to compete. Teams trading an elite talent for parts loosing 90% of the time.

So the Flames are screwed either way. Their only hope is to win and hope JG wants to resign. Either other solution means we are worst next year which means we are toast and should be in a full rebuild. You cant win without elite talent in the NHL and we have two elite talents.

In reality the Flames can probably get relatively close assets in the offseason using JG's cap space by taking on bad contracts like Carolina or Phoenix did and rebuilding , as they would be trading JG.

The ultimate sin would be to loose JG for nothing, sign an overpriced middle 6 forward for 6 million, another for 4 million, and go for it again without JG and not use the asset OR cap space to rebuild.

And I think option 3 is what have most people terrified. That in 2 years we are starting a fresh rebuild with no elite talent and no elite potential talent in the pipeline.

That is a rebuild that can take a very long time and has a higher chance at failure.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

As nervous as I am about Gaudreau not yet being signed, you have to wonder if he would be having the same season if he had signed an extension over the summer.

Considering how his trajectory went up the moment Darryl put together the new first line I'm confident he would be having the same season. Tkachuk is having an even better season over last year and he's not a UFA at the end of the season.