Wheel of Time (Inevitable Spoilers Thread)

[Harry Lime]

Episode 5 - Hmmmmm.....

Ok, here is what I think happened with this series.

There have been many rumors about Jeff Bezos and his 'criteria for a good film', and whether or not Wheel of Time had to adhere to it during it's production. There has absolutely been a shift in the tone and writing of the series from the first three episodes. I'm starting to think that there is some credence to the rumors, and the beginning of the series was carefully orchestrated to include everything that Bezos felt was important.

Since he doesn't have a clue what he is doing, I believe that what we are seeing now are the true intentions of the showrunner. Things have slowed down, the condensation of the story makes more sense, and the writing is character driven. The downside is that some of the actors need to show more charisma to maintain it, but the two leads in Moirane and Lan are flexing.

The biggest change is Child Valda being a mixture of Valda, Child Byar and a questioner. The actor is doing his best to chew scenery, and it's bordering on comical, but here's to hoping that he is being over the top in order to allow for a long character arc.

Here's also hoping that they stop simplifying the storyline so much going forward. It's ok so the relationships between characters to be subtle.

[gallione11]

I'm starting to lose hope in it being good. I knew it wasn't going to be 100% by the book but it feels like it's almost <25%. Multiple main characters haven't appeared yet or maybe have been written out completely, but we'll spend

ep5 spoilers:

Spoiler!

Almost an entire episode on a warder and his death who wasn't even in the book. Feels like Liandrin is a mix of Liandrin and Elaida so far which is not right since they had two distinct animosities towards the main crew. No Min yet (I know she was cast), no Elyas, no Elayne (!). 3 episodes left this season to make headway in the long story but it feels like were still in the first third of the first book as far as plotlines go.

[Kasi]

Spoiler!

Elyas was hardly a main character. Elayne and Min are both cast for season two. Elayne had one short scene in book one so losing her right now is not an issue. It does seem like they’re combining Liandrin and Elaida but since Liandrin becomes useless after book 3 and Elaida does little before book four I’m not surprised. The only concern I guess I have here is what will the girls do if they’re not hunting black ajah.

I’ve seen from book readers that they just want the show to be highlights of the books but that was never going to work for a show. WoT books have way too many characters and large a scale to be faithfully reproduced and that’s before cutting 14 books down to 8 seasons. Massive plot cuts and character amalgamations were inevitable for budgetary reasons as much as anything else. (You can’t have your plot spread between so many characters)

I do agree they probably spent say five minutes too much on warder stuff on this last episode that could have fleshed out the kids storylines more. But I do think it’s important to show what the warders are and how they interact with the Aes Sedai to make Lan a better character than the stone face he was in the books. It also sets up later stuff with Moiraine passing off Lans bond and Allanna bonding Rand.

I also expect the forsaken to be cut down from 13 (maybe to the 8 we saw statues for) Balthamel and Messana can be cut with little loss and you can cut one of the generic generals easily (Sammael, Belahl or Rahvin) and tbh can cut one of Grandael or Senirhage easily too. Ishamael, Lanfear, Moghedien and Asmodean to me are the important ones.

[photon]

I'm fine with cutting, I think the books could benefit from being cut in half. Heck I'd be fine if they (book spoilers):

Spoiler!

Cut the Seanchan out completely. As in they just don't exist in the TV universe.

[Kasi]

Stuff I hope they cut completely.

Spoiler!

All the plots from Grandael and the western kingdom policitics.
The people Demandred recruits later.
The random Aes Sedai hunting for black ajah in the tower.
Great generals stuff.
Balthamel/Aginor reborn.
Theorizing about metaphysics or over complicating power usage/techniques.

Stuff they should trim a ton.

Spoiler!

Seanchan, sea folk, forsaken sub plots, horn, black ajah, black tower.

Basically if a scene doesn’t involve Moiraine, Lan or Two Rivers folk (or a villain or if they bring in new main characters) it should likely be cut.

[Kasi]

For gallione:

Spoiler!

I’ve not tracked down the rumor yet but someone in the know was saying on another forum I frequent that Elyas has been cast for season 2 and that his character and Hurin are being combined into one. I think that would work rather well since Hurin does accompany them during book two.

[spetch]

What I've seen so far I've enjoyed. But really what I have taken from shows based on books is, for the most part only visit one. Either read the books and don't watch or watch and don't read. 90% of the time you will likely be disappointed which ever way you go with. Noticed this with Foundation, this show, GoT, Ready Player One and so on. It's like you have an expectation based on what you've read or seen and when it doesn't match what your mind you immediately get a letdown reguardless. Anyways that is just my two cents from what I have seen over the years lurking in these types of threads.

[Kybosh]

I read the first 8 books but it's been so long that I can barely remember a lot of the details. My partner, who hasn't ready anything about the series, was a little on the fence after the first episode but she's come around. She actually really likes the mystery around who the Dragon is, while the book never really had much mystery as I recall.

[Matata]

I'm still having a hard time judging it on it's own merits. I'm either comparing it to the books (which is frustrating because I don't remember most of them) or Game of Thrones and it's 5 seasons of medieval fantasy perfection. It compares very poorly to GoT particularly with casting. GoT seemed like they could never make a mistake where WoT has had some pretty weak casting choices, particularly among the Aes Sedai (bunch of frumps with no screen presence. What have they done with my poor Alanna?).

Maybe part of the reason I'm having a hard time judging it on it's own is because it's still finding it's feet as I also noticed a change between episodes 1-3 and 4&5. I still think it has all the ingredient to be great but it may take another season or two to get there.

I also think they should have dropped the whole "Aiel hair" thing since they decided to make race invisible, which was already challenging due to the extremely jingoistic structure of the WoT world. It's also going to be hard for a bunch of black and asian people not to look comical with thick, straw-like, red hair wigs on.

[Kasi]

That’s odd for me I think the casting has been the best part. The only part of how the characters look/feel that could be improved a bit is the costuming. I would prefer a more subtle way of differentiating ajah and I think sometimes the characters look too much like they’re wearing new clothes. I don’t want GoT level grunge but just dirty/age things a bit.

The toughest part to me is getting plots right because the books as written are unfilmable so they’re going to have to do a ton of edits. Mostly I think they’ve made good decisions but they’re going to have to leave stuff out.

[Boblobla]

Character trims:

Spoiler!

They can definitely do some combining of the various minor Aes Sedai within the Ajahs, there was so many to keep track of. Hopefully trim down/merge some of the forsaken as well.

I am torn on the complete removal of the Seanchan. While I know it dragged at times there was some character development for the girls and interesting use of the one power. I can see why they would be the highest budget draw though with the explosions and flying creatures.

What I am missing so far:

Spoiler!

I know I mentioned it before but I am disappointed with the lack of discussion about Rands sword. Am I misremembering that the Heron featured much more heavily in the books?

[Kasi]

Spoiler!

In book one it didn’t come up much. Maybe one or two times on the way up to Caemlyn it came up. The main scene it did come up in was in Caemlyn and that got cut. It’s not like he really used it in book one. It’s only when Lan started teaching him that he started to use it.

[Harry Lime]

Spoiler!

There are two things that are missing in relation to the sword. The first is the connection to Rand's father. It establishes that Tam Al'Thor is an important figure even outside of the familial relation. It also creates a sense of displacement for Rand in the story. I can see why they left some of this behind. If they want to play up the 'mystery' element, it doesn't help that Rand would be established as being at least half of an 'outsider' to the Two Rivers. So far he is the most bland character in the television series.

The second thing that I am missing in relation to the sword is that random people noticed it in the books. He would go into a tavern and someone would go to mess with him and Mat, and then see the sword and back off. He would be given undeserved respect, and it deepened the character, as that would follow him later in the story. Did he deserve all of this? It bothered me a lot that Lan did not mention the heron on the sword right away. Lan himself carries the Malkier sword of kings that has the same properties as a heron mark blade.

It weakens the story a bit to not have these little depth pieces.

[Mazrim]

So far, so good, IMO. I came into the show expecting a departure from the books, and by Episode 5 the show is almost completely on its own path now. The first 3 episodes really felt like a whirlwind getting things going, and now we've had a couple episodes to more thoroughly develop some character motivations and internal politics.

The cinematography is excellent, and the casting feels really good to what my mind's eye expected for many of the characters. The way they're filling in the details of the world at large, avoiding big internal monologues, has been really good. Removing knowledge from characters (such as Perrin and Egwene not knowing what the Traveling People are about) also helped ease unfamiliar viewers into the story a lot better.

My wife has never read the books, and she's really come to enjoy the show. I've only answered her questions about certain things she saw in the show and tried to avoid direct comparisons to the books. One metric I think I can use to call the show a success is that most of her questions are answered in the next episode, so they're dishing out information at a good pace.

I'm 3/4 of the way through Book 4 right now and really hope to see some of the scenes in this book turned into a TV show. It'll make for really great viewing.

[Harry Lime]

Episode 6 - Well. Well, well, well, well, well.

I think that we can put to bed that this is anything but a loose following of the books. Heading to the Eye of the World with only part of the group is new. Also, how is everyone going to end up in the right earthly places later if they are mixed around now? It's interesting that those who have read the books are along for the narrative ride, so to speak.

The other thing from this episode that is going to be interesting going forward is the gender fluidity of relationships. There are connections that need to be made in the future that are going to be in some pretty selective directions. Or maybe not happen at all? It's a Kristin Stewart world, and we are all just living in it.

I really don't mind the changes. There are things that I would do differently, and things that I think are going to make things more difficult from a storytelling perspective that they are leaving out, but I'm enjoying the characters.

The only thing that I might mind a little is that they are concentrating on the melodrama more than the political intrigue, which is kind of a dated way of dealing with this kind of story.

[Kasi]

This was the actor who played Mat’s last episode I believe. This might be a case of what he did to get tossed from the show forcing their hand in plot changes in that they couldn’t recast him in time and had to change the plot a bit. Apparently the actor deleted his social media and kind of dropped off the face of the earth. I think this is akin to Cas Anvar from the expanse where they had to do a pivot due to decisions of the actor.

Episodes 1-6 were filmed pre pandemic and 7-8 after they got back together post. I think it’s pretty obvious from the cut there that that last scene was recut. He didn’t say anything about leaving in the show and it looked like they showed the same hesitation cut several times. I’m guessing in the original scene he hemmed and hawed but came though. I suppose they could have had him go through the portal and come out recast but that would be even weirder.

[photon]

Interesting, I didn't know that about Mat's actor. I wouldn't care about coming out recast, I'm always a bit baffled about reluctance to recast someone; it's the character that's important, not the actor, but I guess a different actor may portray the character differently and confuse some people when they look different.

Interesting what they're doing with the story. Agree with Harry I may have made different choices and emphasis, but I've never been one to be upset if a show/movie doesn't follow a book; I just care if the story is good and well done.

It's just that often the quality of the writing and dialog takes a dive when they forge their own path rather than pulling from the source material, be it this or WoT or whatever.

[J epworth]

Too much emotion by the Amyrlin Seat is my biggest complaint this episode. Loved the backstory for her, how it tied into her speech to Nynaeve, but the public crying in the Hall is something that never would happen. I understand using the oath rod as it helps show the viewers how the oaths are done but I still think they could have avoided that and maybe just shown an accepted become Aes Sedai at the beginning of season 2 or something to achieve the same thing.

Also the decision to go to the Eye of the world makes no sense. They could have developed Loail more by having him be a more active part in that decision and come on, where is his constant “ohhh Taveren” comments?? Finally, why wasn’t Loial the one to open the way gate?

Okay done complaining and can’t wait for the final two episodes!

[dammage79]

I dont know. How does anyone condense Robert Jordan's Tomes and keep to the spirit of them? Thats an impossible order in of itself. I'm glad for the show. It's such a cool universe. I'm just not going to fret too harshly on the accuracy to the books. Like I said, in my opinion it's impossible to filter Jordan's work to the screen and make everyone happy. I'm kind of glad they tossed that idea out before they even got started.

[Kasi]

There is a number of things in the books that are cool or important but completely unfilmable.

1. Power usage having no visual effects. I’m sure two people staring intently at each other would be really fun to watch.
2. Men being able to sense women channeling by feeling pinpricks.
3. Warders cloaks.
4. Perrins entire evolution of a character as it comes mostly through internal character monologues.
5. Lots of the quirks of the one power or metaphysics of the universe

Not to mention the sheer number of characters, plots, locations and it’s scale make it impossible to show as written. As an anime maybe but live not really.

To mei judge it on does it follow the spirit of the novels and do the characters feel similar. And does it have enough of the iconic moments that I want? So far it’s a yes for me.