[News] Zetterberg could miss the entire season

[Huntingwhale]

I have no issue believing the reports. Unlike Hossa, his injuries have been well documented throughout his entire career. Not like the magical rash Hossa got. In addition, Zetterberg's salary of 3.35 million isn't exactly chump change either. Hossa's suspicious condition, combined with his $1M salary makes it much more unbelievable. Zetterberg's had back trouble since his early days in the league. He's not exactly a young man anymore, and at age 37 injuries like that are much more serious.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

I have no issue believing the reports. Unlike Hossa, his injuries have been well documented throughout his entire career. Not like the magical rash Hossa got. In addition, Zetterberg's salary of 3.35 million isn't exactly chump change either. Hossa's suspicious condition, combined with his $1M salary makes it much more unbelievable. Zetterberg's had back trouble since his early days in the league. He's not exactly a young man anymore, and at age 37 injuries like that are much more serious.

Should he not then retire? I don't think anyone would hold it against him if he retired as is any player's right if they feel they no longer want to play for any reason.

[Hockey-and_stuff]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Should it not be asked that he have surgery if his back is this bad? It's bad enough that he can't play ever again but not bad enough to have surgery?

I wonder if it's a situation like Nathan Horton, where his back surgery would effectively spell the end of his career in the NHL as he would never have the flexibility necessary to play at a high level.

For a guy like Zetterberg who loves the game, he may want to sit out a year and hope he can recover without surgery than risk never being able to play again.

[Huntingwhale]

It would not surprise me if he did retire. Combined with Detroit's recent lack of on-ice success and his injuries, it might be time to hang them up if I were him. He's made his money and no one would fault him.

I just don't think it's fair to lump him in as a cap circumventor. He's had issues like this his entire playing career so I think it's fair to give him the benefit of a doubt.

[btimbit]

How would the numbers add up for cap recapture penalties? Could just be doing the team a favour by not retiring outright.

I remember reading an article last summer that he himself said he was likely going to retire in 2019 so will be interesting to see what happens

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by codynw

If Zetterberg were the only player to LTIRetire as soon as his salary dropped, then whatever. But how many is this now? It's cap circumvention and it's garbage that the league lets them away with it.

Of note, Zetterberg and Hossa both signed their contracts under the last CBA. The 2013 agreement did take steps to restrict backdiving contracts in an effort to mitigate this somewhat.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by btimbit

How would the numbers add up for cap recapture penalties? Could just be doing the team a favour by not retiring outright.

I remember reading an article last summer that he himself said he was likely going to retire in 2019 so will be interesting to see what happens

If he retired this year the Wings would have been hit with a cap recapture penalty of $4,300,001 for the next 3 years.

If he retired next year the penalty would have been $5,083,335 for 2 years.

If he retired in 2020 $5,083,335 for 1 year.

The recapture penalty is dead cap space. It can't be traded and unlike LTIR teams aren't allowed to exceed the salary cap to replace a player with the recapture penalty.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Should he not then retire? I don't think anyone would hold it against him if he retired as is any player's right if they feel they no longer want to play for any reason.

If it's a legitimate injury, why should he? The NHL contract he signed gave him this right. By all accounts this is a real injury that has prevented him from practicing most of the season last year and training this off-season. Both Detroit and I'm sure Zetterberg would rather he play than not, even with his injury last year he was still on of their best players.

Walk away from $5,350,000.00 he's legally entitled to because some random fans don't think his injury is legitimate? Lol.

[dobbles]

Also, I believe the wings are in much less cap trouble than it appears as they do LTIR Franzen year after year. If anything, thats the blemish on their rep. They've been "Pronger-ing" him for what, 5 years now?

Getting rid of Zetterbergs cap hit obviously gives them way more flexibility, but I think they would be OK regardless of what happens.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Franzen was in the middle of his contract, making five million a year when he got his concussion. Not much he or the Wings could do, it was a legitimate career ending injury despite his best efforts at coming back. You can't force him to retire and give up over $10,000,000.00 that he was entitled to, and you certainly can't force him to play through a concussion.

The NHL allowed this to happen when they accepted Kiprusoff's retirement contract and then kept the boundaries be pushed until Kovalchuk's. But of course, as you got these decade long contracts that went until the player was 40, we were going to see career-ending legitimate injuries and the situation we're in now. The policy itself has to change, (or I guess just wait it out until Weber finishes his career on the LTIR due to his knee injuries) but the last people I fault are the players if they are actually injured.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by dobbles

Also, I believe the wings are in much less cap trouble than it appears as they do LTIR Franzen year after year. If anything, thats the blemish on their rep. They've been "Pronger-ing" him for what, 5 years now?

Getting rid of Zetterbergs cap hit obviously gives them way more flexibility, but I think they would be OK regardless of what happens.

Not sure what Prongering means but if there is any question about the seriousness of Mule's concussion just read this:

http://www.sportingnews.com/us/nhl/n...910rdl1rrz5i5i

So I have no idea how this could be considered a blemish on the Wings.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

If it's a legitimate injury, why should he? The NHL contract he signed gave him this right. By all accounts this is a real injury that has prevented him from practicing most of the season last year and training this off-season. Both Detroit and I'm sure Zetterberg would rather he play than not, even with his injury last year he was still on of their best players.

Walk away from $5,350,000.00 he's legally entitled to because some random fans don't think his injury is legitimate? Lol.

That's fine but if he wants to get paid but if he wants to get paid he should play if he is healthy enough to play and how can his coach come out and say because he wasn't able to prepare for the season he's going to miss the entire season? That's where things become foggy as that's not how things work. Players report and the team monitors their progress during the recovery progress and when team doctors deem he's fit to play he is inserted into the lineup. How many players have had offseason surgery and not been able to skate until the season starts only to return? How can the Wings come to the conclusion that he can't play all season because he didn't do his offseason workout? It would be much easier to buy if they said he would start the season on IR and his return is uncertain. They are closing the book like it's case closed because he couldn't prepare in the offseason but there is no prerequisite that any player has to prepare in the offseason to be able to play.

Does anyone really think he's going to come back for the 2020 season for a $1 million salary? Really?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

That's fine but if he wants to get paid but if he wants to get paid he should play if he is healthy enough to play and how can his doctor just come out and say because he wasn't able to prepare for the season he's going to miss the entire season? That's where things become foggy as that's not how things work. Players report and the team monitors their progress during the recovery progress and when team doctors deem he's fit to play he is inserted into the lineup. How many players have had offseason surgery and not been able to skate until the season starts only to return? How can the Wings come to the conclusion that he can't play all season because he didn't do his offseason workout? It would be much easier to buy if they said he would start the season on IR and his return is uncertain. They are closing the book like it's case closed.

The whole point is that he's likely not going to be cleared by the doctors at training camp...

It's not like they don't know his ailments and current conditions. This is what's likely to happen at this time. And if there's any funny business the NHL can bring in their own doctors.

Also we're getting information third hand from the coach.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

The whole point is that he's likely not going to be cleared by the doctors at training camp...

It's not like they don't know his ailments and current conditions. This is what's likely to happen at this time. And if there's any funny business the NHL can bring in their own doctors.

You still aren't answering the question of how they can conclude in August he can't play in February or March. I'm sure the NHL will bring their own doctors as teams will likely complain again as they did with Hossa but we also know the NHL isn't going to come down hard on the Wings after letting the Hawks and Kings off the hook.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You still aren't answering the question of how they can conclude in August he can't play in February or March..

Yeah, no ####. Because I'm not a doctor. Apparently you are though to be able to question it though. A lot of time though progress is all they can go on. If he can't do X by now, it's going to be at least Y amount of time until he can do Z. Especially if it's a deteriorating condition, sometime it just doesn't get better and they know it.

I also like that you've questioned why he hasn't had surgery without knowing...well anything at all. Get a MD then you can question #### like that.

And again, third hand information from the coach though.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Not sure what Prongering means but if there is any question about the seriousness of Mule's concussion just read this:

http://www.sportingnews.com/us/nhl/n...910rdl1rrz5i5i

So I have no idea how this could be considered a blemish on the Wings.

There is a long highlight video of that game from 10 October 2015 included with that article. The hit occurred at the 14:05–mark of the second period. What is amazing is that Franzen gets up and brushes it off right away—he is laughing and joking with teammates; he appears to be fine. Franzen leaves the ice and goes to the dressing room, but then he returns to the game even before the end of the second period, and finishes the third on the powerplay.

Looking at how much he is struggling now it really serves to reinforce how serious even the apparently benign head injuries can be, and how difficult their severity is to diagnose. When you watch that highlight package I very much doubt that anyone would predict from this an end to Franzen's career, and quite possibly the quality of the rest of his life. This is scary stuff.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

There is a long highlight video of that game from 10 October 2015 included with that article. The hit occurred at the 14:05–mark off the second period. What is amazing is that Franzen gets up and brushes it off right away—he is laughing and joking with teammates; he appears to be fine. Franzen leaves the ice and goes to the dressing room, but then he returns to the game even before the end of the second period, and finishes the third on the powerplay.

Looking at how much he is struggling now it really serves to reinforce how serious even the apparently benign head injuries can be, and how difficult their severity is to diagnose. When you watch that highlight package I very much doubt that anyone would predict from this an end to Franzen's career, and quite possibly the quality of the rest of his life. This is scary stuff.

Also reinforces why you can't possibly make a diagnosis on whether someone's brain is impaired by asking them to tell you if their brain is impaired.

That's what is so ####ed up to me about the concussion issue. When the potential injury is to critical faculties, it is negligent to then rely on those critical faculties as a means of justifying exposure to future injury.

People with brain injuries often cannot accurately describe the nature or severity of their brain injury because the brain is injured.

I don't know what mechanism should be put in place to protect athletes from themselves, but ultimately they can't be relied upon to judge the extent of their own injuries.

[Erick Estrada]

I think things have got better in that once a player takes a big hit doctors are alerted to check him out and there are some telltale signs they can pick up on right away. We aren't that far removed from the days of players getting their bells rung and being on the ice next shift so things aren't going to happen overnight but I expect over the next decade there will be better measures. Of course some organizations are still failing the basics like the Alouettes letting Manziel finish a game after he clearly got concussed.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think things have got better in that once a player takes a big hit doctors are alerted to check him out and there are some telltale signs they can pick up on right away. We aren't that far removed from the days of players getting their bells rung and being on the ice next shift so things aren't going to happen overnight but I expect over the next decade there will be better measures. Of course some organizations are still failing the basics like the Alouettes letting Manziel finish a game after he clearly got concussed.

I think a question is do those "spotters" understand well enough the signs of concussions.
I do wonder if someone takes a big hit if they should be removed from a game as default.
But I understand that's complicated as what if a key player takes a big hit in a playoff game, and is pulled out, only later to be evaluated as being fine
And how would we define "a big hit"
All of this is very complicated.
But I agree, in football in particular there have been some gross examples of a guy clearly being concussed, and not being pulled immediately.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think things have got better in that once a player takes a big hit doctors are alerted to check him out and there are some telltale signs they can pick up on right away...

One would think so. But then again...

https://thehockeynews.com/news/artic...ssion-protocol

"With 2:55 remaining in the first period of Monday night’s game between the Toronto Maple Leafs and Los Angeles Kings, Quick went down with what appeared to be an inadvertent forearm shiver from his own defenseman Derek Forbort, who was jostling in front of the Kings net with Maple Leafs winger Zach Hyman. Quick immediately grabbed his head. At that point, the concussion spotter in the press box at the Air Canada Centre called the league’s war room in New York and alerted the league to the possibility of a concussion. Job done.

"There were three more stoppages in play and 1:44 in playing time had elapsed before Quick was summoned off the ice with 1:11 remaining in the period. And this is where things get really murky. Quick went down the tunnel leading to the quiet room, then returned and took his spot back in the Kings’ crease. He was then pulled off the ice again and replaced by backup Darcy Kuemper, who played the next 36 seconds before Quick went back into the net to play the final 35 seconds of the period.

"At no time was Quick ever assessed for a concussion with any real vigor. He was asked a couple of questions by the Kings trainer and was deemed to be fit to return to play. That was it.

"And that is where all of this is breaking down. L.A. coach John Stevens said after the game that the Kings received word that Quick was to come out of the game, then were told that upon further review the league had determined Quick did not need to go through concussion protocol. Referees Steve Kozari and Ghislain Hebert, meanwhile, treated Quick as an injured player and insisted he sit until at least the next stoppage in play."