Charging for quotes & estimates

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Lubicon

I don't think BsFaninCGY is asking for that at all. He's asking for a starting price to fix his toilet. That should be pretty simple for any plumber to know - all they need to say is 'our starting rate is $xx for a simple fix. If it is more involved then our additional charges are $xxx/hr' or whatever. Most people understand if the job turns out to be more complex than first believed then the price will go up.

Charging for a quote is a non-starter for me too, anyone who does that (regardless of what the service is) is off my list before I even start.

How is that any different from what they told him? In his OP, he said they gave him a price to come to his house to quote him.

we quote when we're on site. On site visits cost $xx.xx

So if you word at as "minimum charge to fix your toilet is $220", OP is happy, but if you tell him it's $75 to come to his house you piss him off. Like WTF. I'd way rather pay the $75 in hopes of a simple fix to the toilet problem that will maybe cost an hour of labour, but OP is stoked on his $220 minimum to fix the toilet oblivious to the fact that an onsite charge is built into the $220. It's actually kind of hilarious.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by btimbit

A few months ago I was thinking about how wasteful everyone is these days and how I remembered growing up we didn't just throw stuff away when it broke, we'd get it repaired. So when my dishwasher broke, I called a repair guy.

$75 for a guy to come out, look at it for 30 seconds, and suggest I just buy a new one anyway.

Welcome to the cost of labour in 2019 Canada.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by BsFaninCGY

Oh, and I did get a quote today. $220 plus tax to put a camera down there and potentially fix the problem if it's as simple as the back water valve. This includes taking the toilet off and putting it back on. Could be more if the problem is greater. Perfect, exactly what I wanted and the guy is coming Friday. See, it can be done.

Did you try a toilet auger first? $18 at Home Depot.

[PaperBagger'14]

I used to do a ton of side work before and (I'm not saying this is you) I would filter clients based on phone chats. Having been stiffed before on work, as well as having great difficulty getting money back, I eventually started not taking jobs just based on how the client acted over the phone. If they raised any concern about cost I wouldn't take them.

I know you were asking for a free estimate (and I would always do that), but maybe something was said that was a red flag for the contractor?

[BsFaninCGY]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

I used to do a ton of side work before and (I'm not saying this is you) I would filter clients based on phone chats. Having been stiffed before on work, as well as having great difficulty getting money back, I eventually started not taking jobs just based on how the client acted over the phone. If they raised any concern about cost I wouldn't take them.

I know you were asking for a free estimate (and I would always do that), but maybe something was said that was a red flag for the contractor?

I sent out a request through Homestars which lets you describe your issue (to the best of your ability of course) and then request multiple quotes. The first person wouldn't quote - only on site after the dispatch fee. The second did quote (after I started this thread); the third quoted as well and it was lowest and the guy was obviously a tradesperson and not a receptionist - he was able to talk with me using the language I'd expect. I booked him.

I understand what you're saying tho - I've quoted high to weed out certain clients myself. I have no way to know for sure, but I don't believe that's what this was.

[cupofjoe]

It is completely up to the contractor to how they want to conduct business in every aspect of how they charge / quote / estimate for their business.

If they don't want to give phone quotes or a starting price that is their prerogative. Maybe experience has told that these calls are not a good target market for them or maybe they are short-sighted and are missing out, who knows.

It is also completely up to the homeowner to accept whatever the conditions of the quote process are or move on to the next contractor.

I am not sure why the OP is so upset or frustrated by this, just because he runs his business in certain fashion doesn't mean other contractors in a different industry should do the same. Just keeping phoning contractors until you get one suited for you.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by Sliver

How is that any different from what they told him? In his OP, he said they gave him a price to come to his house to quote him.



So if you word at as "minimum charge to fix your toilet is $220", OP is happy, but if you tell him it's $75 to come to his house you piss him off. Like WTF. I'd way rather pay the $75 in hopes of a simple fix to the toilet problem that will maybe cost an hour of labour, but OP is stoked on his $220 minimum to fix the toilet oblivious to the fact that an onsite charge is built into the $220. It's actually kind of hilarious.

No what I think he is saying is he doesn’t want to pay the 75 dollars to be told it will cost 220 dollars unless they find more complications. He is just asking what the charge is for a possible simple fix(220 dollars unless they find complications) which doesn’t involve paying the 75 dollar fee

[BsFaninCGY]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Did you try a toilet auger first? $18 at Home Depot.

Yeah, I've got one of those with the bent pipe and the snake that goes about 3 to 5 feet. Didn't seem to make a difference.

[BsFaninCGY]

Originally Posted by cupofjoe

It is completely up to the contractor to how they want to conduct business in ever aspect of how they charge / quote / estimate for their business.

If they don't want to give phone quotes or a starting price that is their prerogative. Maybe experience has told that these calls are not a good target market for them or maybe they are short-sighted and are missing out, who knows.

It is also completely up to the homeowner to accept whatever the conditions of the quote process are or move on to the next contractor.

I am not sure why the OP is so upset or frustrated by this, just because he runs his business in certain fashion doesn't mean other contractors in a different industry should do the same. Just keeping phoning contractors until you get one suited for you.

Probably lots of other stresses building up and this is what set me off today. A few hours removed and I've calmed down. Others pushing a narrative on you bugged me today as well. I'll own that and try to be better next time.

As for your point, yep - that's exactly what I did, got other numbers. I guess I was thinking back to the hot water tank. We had a tank that had leaked throughout our finished basement. My pregnant wife was home by herself and I was trying to make calls at a time at work I really couldn't. She's a wonderful woman, but this kind of stuff is not her forte. She tried getting quotes as well but no one would over the phone. Once a guy showed up (for a fee) he quoted us nearly $2000 on top of the fee. We wouldn't call another guy because it had to be done and this guy was there (we also didn't want to pay another appearance fee plus who knows if the new quote would be lower). I also knew a tank from Home Depot cost way less. Had the tank been electric and not gas I would have installed it myself. It had to be done and done right by a professional - I just didn't like the whole scenario. We had to pay someone to come in to tell us a price they could have over the phone (with caveats to unexpected work - also acceptable), and then the price was outrageous (wasn't an emergency call either).

Having it look to happen again this morning I was hoping to open a discussion on if this is the norm and see if anyone could recommend a good plumber who didn't operate this way.

[cupofjoe]

Hey totally get it, once bitten, twice shy, sprinkle in some life frustrations and the rant begins.

Sounds like your hot water tank guy was overpriced, and at that point you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. I hate it when that happens.

[Red]

What's next? Door to door salesman charging every one a few dollars for "working" to get more business?

Only a sucker would pay for an estimate. No reputable company will ask for one. If a plumber needs to charge for estimates to unclog a toilet then he is unlikely to be competitive. Look elsewhere.

A friend of mine runs a landscaping business. He sets aside one day a week for estimates. This way he can plan his route and do it efficiently. Yes, he loses a day a week for free work. But that day keeps him working for the rest of the week. Food for though.

[8 Ball]

Originally Posted by Red

What's next? Door to door salesman charging every one a few dollars for "working" to get more business?

Only a sucker would pay for an estimate. No reputable company will ask for one. If a plumber needs to charge for estimates to unclog a toilet then he is unlikely to be competitive. Look elsewhere.

A friend of mine runs a landscaping business. He sets aside one day a week for estimates. This way he can plan his route and do it efficiently. Yes, he loses a day a week for free work. But that day keeps him working for the rest of the week. Food for though.

Most people don’t have landscape emergencies. As far as plumbing goes, most plumbers will give you their rates, and explain best/worst case scenarios.

[GGG]

Was the water heater an emergency install.

If you want the plumber to come out right away and do the work after giving you an estimate the I suspect you got an emergency call out and emergency repair fees. Outside of that I recently had 3 estimates done for a furnace and Hot water tank replacement and all of them came out for free to provide an estimate.

[flaming_potato]

My 2 cents:

I am in the flooring business and 99% of the time we do not charge for an estimate. The other 1% of the time is when I get called to give an estimate for a repair and I happen to have the tools or materials to fix it on the spot then I will try to figure out a price based on my time to charge.

What gets me is when people ask (and I get it but it still grinds my gears) is when people ask for a price to install or repair their floor over phone or email when I haven't even seen the job. There are so many factors for me to consider when pricing out a job such as:

- prep work (old floor removal, baseboards, subfloor leveling)

- layout and an acurate sqft measurement

- type of flooring material to be installed (also mouldings and transitions, stairs?)

- existing furniture
- homeowners expectations and timelines
- and a lot more I could go on

Therefore I have no problem coming over at no charge to give my clients an accurate estimate and educate them on flooring and my services. The last thing I want to do is sell myself short or surprise my client with extra charges after I fully asses the job. Most people don't understand the amount work involved with what I need to do to get the job done properly, under warranty and problem free.

I have had clients say to me "Oh, its only 650 sqft of laminate install that should be easy for you to give me a price over the phone, no?" Then I get there and their existing carpet and mdf baseboards are soaked with cat piss and disintegrate when removed, the subfloor has swelled due to the excess moisture from the cat piss and over watering of the plants and needs to be repaired and all the high edges sanded down and there is furniture everywhere that they "forgot to remove". And then they are shocked when I have to charge more for having to spend almost an extra day dealing with all of these things that were failed to be mentioned to me, starting with getting a coveralls and a respirator to remove the carpet and baseboards without gagging. So yeah I try not to take that chance anymore. I guess this could go in the gear grinder thread!

Do I sometimes spend an hour or so at an estimate only to lose the job or not get a call back? Yes. Unfortunately this is one of the many costs in my business. Now I understand how it can be necessary for some companies to charge for their time depending on what it is they do. I typically can only do my estimates in the evening and weekends anyways because I am generally busy during the day in the week. Sometimes I wish I charged for estimates as it sucks taking time away from the wife and kids but I find it works out most of the time anyways, win most, lose a little. I need to do it to keep busy anyhow.

[CaptainCrunch]

I don't know if I blame them for charging something for an estimate. I mean how many times do they go out and do a diagnosis or estimate and the person runs out to another company and basically gives them the estimate or quote?


Of course they're going to get undercut, especially with a customer going "If you beat this price the business is yours, this price right on the estimate that the other person did"


Most people as stated before will credit the estimate off of the final invoice.

[8 Ball]

There is a difference between a diagnosis and an estimate. One is billable, and one is not imo.

[Erick Estrada]

I feel any plumber should be able to quote a replacement hot water tank based on you telling what your existing heater is (ie: 40 gallon gas) without having to see it but I also see the other side of the argument when you call with a plumbing issue that may require diagnosis such as the toilet issue as it could be a simple clog or it may require flush valve replacement, etc. If you quote them to come over and unclog the toilet and then arrive and find out they need $50 in parts some customers may complain and expect them to stick with the estimate provided over the phone.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

This is exactly how they explain it and it's a complete BS. There must be some effort on the part of a contractor to earn the job. Estimating is part of that effort. Millions of contractors around the world prepare tender bids and get nothing for it when someone else wins the tender. If a contractor can't tell you on the phone what it would cost to replace a 40-gal hot water tank, I would not even bother inviting them over to look at it. The proper answer should be: "The 40-gal tank cost is $800, installation will cost $500 to $700 depending on your piping layout , time to get it in/out and accessibility, disposal cost is $80 etc." This is REALLY not rocket science. They do want you on the hook for the estimate costs, so that people don't feel like wasting the estimating fee and hire them right there.

Major appliance repair companies are the worst for this abhorrent practice, btw.

As someone in the industry I can tell you that the supposed idea of millions of contractors tendering bits for free is a rapidly dying practice.

I don't know if charging for a quote to change your hot water tank is necessary, but I do know that charging for a quote on any kind of reno work is becoming standard practice.

At the end of the day it comes down to a huge time commitment. Yes, you need to go after work so when starting a business there might be a few years where a lot of time is wasted trying to get your name out there.

Once the company is established it should be normal to charge for an estimate.

If you don't like it say thanks to an entire generation of people who value low cost over good quality.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Red

What's next? Door to door salesman charging every one a few dollars for "working" to get more business?

Only a sucker would pay for an estimate. No reputable company will ask for one. If a plumber needs to charge for estimates to unclog a toilet then he is unlikely to be competitive. Look elsewhere.

A friend of mine runs a landscaping business. He sets aside one day a week for estimates. This way he can plan his route and do it efficiently. Yes, he loses a day a week for free work. But that day keeps him working for the rest of the week. Food for though.

This is completely wrong.

From my experience a lot of the struggles contractors or small businesses have with growing their business is because they don't charge for estimates / drawings.

If you value price over quality & reputation, you will demand a free estimate. If you value quality & reputation over price you will be fine with paying for estimates for most things that require a substantial time commitment.

We've used a variety of methods, among them free first estimate, reimbursed estimate, simply charging for estimates, or free estimates.

The customers you love working with are the ones who have no problem paying for an estimate. Part of growing any home renovation type business is learning how to vet your clients, and charging for estimates is a great way of doing that.

There is also nothing holding a company back from reimbursing it back to the client after the work is done or calling it part of the payment towards the actual work.

[Ducay]

This thread reads like a Seinfeld episode starring BsFaninCGY as an irate George Costanza