Ongoing US Mass Shooting Thread

[codynw]

[Acey]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

A lot of people today regard the confederate flag as tantamount to wearing a white sheet and carrying a torch. Not much to choose between Nazis and the KKK.

To expand on my thoughts on this... one is a visually higher level of commitment. KKK in full attire looks ridiculous, and you can barely see out of that - I'm definitely switching to the other side of the sidewalk or turning around if I see that coming at me. Somebody with a Confederate flag I'd likely walk past and just not make eye contact, regardless of some arbitrary level of equivalence you've drawn.

Originally Posted by wittynickname

But I'm pretty sure if you could go back in time and experience the conditions on those slave ships (look it up, but only if you don't have a weak stomach. It's appalling.), and realize that thousands upon thousands of black people died just on the journey across the ocean, only to come to North America to be sold as slaves and then beaten, raped, refused any kind of education, killed like livestock, and then even after slavery ended, they were then lynched with regularity, terrorized by people waving the Confederate flag--and you don't realize why some people might be kind of bothered by seeing that flag waving in front of a State Capitol building?

Thanks for the history lesson, as I knew nothing of my heritage prior to reading that. Your accusation that I don't realize what's bad about the flag is unfounded, as I have made my position clear: I don't care much for the people who are all of a sudden the biggest advocates for the flag to come down, and secondarily I feel removing the flag doesn't do much to solve the problem whereby America is "steeped" in racism, as Stewart said... but I concur that's a step in the right direction.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by Acey

Thanks for the history lesson, as I knew nothing of my heritage prior to reading that. Your accusation that I don't realize what's bad about the flag is unfounded, as I have made my position clear: I don't care much for the people who are all of a sudden the biggest advocates for the flag to come down, and secondarily I feel removing the flag doesn't do much to solve the problem whereby America is "steeped" in racism, as Stewart said... but I concur that's a step in the right direction.

I just don't see how you can claim that the Nazis are dramatically worse than was slavery. Slavery was atrocious and lasted a whole lot longer than Hitler's reign did.

America is still steeped in racism and will continue to be, unfortunately. But perhaps if we can stop celebrating the Confederate flag, and stop celebrating the leaders of the Confederacy, stop having statues of men who were vocal and violent supporters of slavery, then perhaps we can stop pretending as if that period of this country's history was anything other than complete and utter terrorism against black people. Maybe with that, accepting how awful it was, we can start to accept the wrongs that this country has been involved in, and thus work toward actually doing something about the problem rather than just ignoring our history and saying racism is over because we have a Black President.

Dropping the Confederate flag is a small step, but it's a step in the right direction, and it should've been done ages ago.

As far as people being suddenly strong supporters of the flag coming down--how many people outside of the SC capital do you suppose were even aware that the Confederate flag was flying outside of the Capitol building? I would imagine it was less that no one cared about it being there until a racist incident, and more that most people had no idea that there was a state that thought waving that flag on government land was a good idea in 2015.

[Acey]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

I just don't see how you can claim that the Nazis are dramatically worse than was slavery. Slavery was atrocious and lasted a whole lot longer than Hitler's reign did.

I don't claim that. I merely claimed that on a hypothetical drive down the QE2 I believe a swastika would solicit more of a reaction than a Confederate flag. Historical accuracy has no relation to public perception which is why you can buy Confederate flags everywhere but not swastikas, no?

If I had a skilled artist airbrush Genghis Khan on my car, even after being told it's Khan how many people would say, "cool airbrushing!"

Far more than would say, "uhh that dude killed 40 million people, are you mad?!"

Perception.

[Resolute 14]

I think cruising around town with a Confederate flag would primarily generate pity, really. The only messages a Canadian holding onto the Lost Cause of the Confederacy is sending is "I'm an ignorant lout" with a high, high probability of "I'm a racist d-bag" attached.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Acey

I don't claim that. I merely claimed that on a hypothetical drive down the QE2 I believe a swastika would solicit more of a reaction than a Confederate flag. Historical accuracy has no relation to public perception which is why you can buy Confederate flags everywhere but not swastikas, no?

If I had a skilled artist airbrush Genghis Khan on my car, even after being told it's Khan how many people would say, "cool airbrushing!"

Far more than would say, "uhh that dude killed 40 million people, are you mad?!"

Perception.

It's so true about the perception thing, and that's kinda a peeve of mine. Even today if you were to compare Bush/Putin or Obama/Putin, the President wins every time in the public perception. But like I've said in other threads, America is as backward as Russia, and have inflicted more oppression onto a greater number of people than Russia has.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

, America is as backward as Russia, and have inflicted more oppression onto a greater number of people than Russia has.

The US is messed up, but I am not sure I agree with the last part without some context.



Are we speaking recent memory or across the board since inception?

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I think cruising around town with a Confederate flag would primarily generate pity, really. The only messages a Canadian holding onto the Lost Cause of the Confederacy is sending is "I'm an ignorant lout" with a high, high probability of "I'm a racist d-bag" attached.

No word of a lie I actually saw that this morning.

I saw a car drive by with a confederate flag license plate on the front as I was walking to work (here in Calgary). It was just some middle aged lady in a soccer mom crossover SUV of some sort.

No idea what her motivation is, or if she even understands it.

Seems to me a lot of people for whatever reason just think its a cool novelty without realizing the full impact of what it stands for.

I think removing the flag and getting people to understand why is an important step.

[Quincy Egg]

The Confederate flag is nothing more than a symbol of Southern heritage and States' rights. What flag flew on the slave ships coming over from Africa? Oh yeah, the AMERICAN FLAG... let's ban that too!

Also, why isn't the Quran banned from Walmart and Amazon since extremists frequently cite it as one of the reasons they commit terrorist acts? Curious to hear the Liberal double-think on that one

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

The US is messed up, but I am not sure I agree with the last part without some context.

Are we speaking recent memory or across the board since inception?

Prepare for a Noam-Chomskyesque recounting of statistics without any sense of context and completely ignoring motivations.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Quincy Egg

The Confederate flag is nothing more than a symbol of Southern heritage and States' rights. What flag flew on the slave ships coming over from Africa? Oh yeah, the AMERICAN FLAG... let's ban that too!

Also, why isn't the Quran banned from Walmart and Amazon since extremists frequently cite it as one of the reasons they commit terrorist acts? Curious to hear the Liberal double-think on that one

You're trying too hard now.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Quincy Egg

The Confederate flag is nothing more than a symbol of Southern heritage and States' rights. What flag flew on the slave ships coming over from Africa? Oh yeah, the AMERICAN FLAG... let's ban that too!

Also, why isn't the Quran banned from Walmart and Amazon since extremists frequently cite it as one of the reasons they commit terrorist acts? Curious to hear the Liberal double-think on that one

I am curious to hear why you keep waving you racist flag.

[CaptainCrunch]

This flag thing is crazy, its representative of a horrible system run by a staunch government built around the concept of enslavement.

The argument from the people that want to keep the flag is two fold.

1) Our states have a right to remember our history.
2) If you get rid of the flag, its a slippery slope to getting rid of the monuments, street names etc that are a key part of Southern History.

I'm of a mind that you shouldn't and can't bury history, no matter how odorous it is, History is the relentless application of modern ideology to past fact. That's why I question a lot of analysis because they take the decisions that people made and base them either around facts that those individuals didn't know, or around modern day ideals.

Nathan Beford Forrest was a #######, while he was a brilliant cavalry officer who's tactics are used to this day by the U.S. military he was one of the highest profile recruits in the KKK, he was a slave trader prior to the start of the civil war, he was a reprehensible man, but people also forgot his last speech was to the Independent Order of Pole Bearers which was a black group that advocated reconciliation between the Black's and Whites, and Forrest made what was considered to be a fairly progressive speech.

So the question now becomes, do they still pull down the monument to him?

As for the Confederate Flag, I think that it should be removed from government grounds, its a reminder of a repressive government with evil goals that advocated slavery and a war within a nation that left masses dead.

If people want to remember their civil war history and look at its influence, you can see that a lot of national guard and regular U.S. military units can be traced directly back to the civil war including the 116th Combat Brigade in in Virginia which actually got its start under Stonewall Jackson as the Stonewall Brigade. The Alabama National Guard which is a direct descendant of the 4th Alabama Infantry and many others. These units have civil war reminders in their unit patches and battle honors.

Groups like the Son's of the Confederate Veterans don't need the flag of the government if they want to pay tribute they can look to the individual units.

[Quincy Egg]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I am curious to hear why you keep waving you racist flag.

I don't wave the flag

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Quincy Egg

I don't wave the flag

I see you took exception to flag waving, but are cool with the racist part.

Class.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by nik-

You're trying too hard now.

The fun fact, and with great irony, is that he is right. In modern usage, the Confederate battle flag DOES represent state rights. It was, in fact, repopularized by the Dixiecrats beginning in the late 1940s. "Dixiecrats" being a nickname of the States Rights Democratic Party. And they were very much in favour of states rights. But what state right was their concern?

Segregation.

That is what their fight was about. So while racists like Quincy Egg are technically right in making such a claim, the reality is that for over a century and a half, the battle flag has represented the idea that, not only are whites are superior to blacks, but that whites need to rise up to defend their right to treat blacks as inferior.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by Quincy Egg

The Confederate flag is nothing more than a symbol of Southern heritage and States' rights. What flag flew on the slave ships coming over from Africa? Oh yeah, the AMERICAN FLAG... let's ban that too!

Also, why isn't the Quran banned from Walmart and Amazon since extremists frequently cite it as one of the reasons they commit terrorist acts? Curious to hear the Liberal double-think on that one

Walmart and Amazon are private companies, whether they carry the Confederate flag or not isn't the point here.

The Quran isn't regularly quoted on US Government structures--but the Bible often is, and there have been plenty of awful things in history that have happened in the name of the Bible and Christianity.

I'd be more than happy to ban the Confederate flag from all government buildings, as well as remove all religious terminology from governmental buildings/monuments/documents. Walmart and Amazon can do whatever they want re: the stars and bars and the Bibles/Quran, because they aren't the ones making legislation that affects 300 million people. (Well, let's be honest, with lobbying and superPACs and Citizens United, they are handcrafting that legislation, but that's an argument for another time and place)

I want my government to come without religious ideals and without waving a flag of overt racism and white supremacy.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

The US is messed up, but I am not sure I agree with the last part without some context.



Are we speaking recent memory or across the board since inception?

The context being recent memory.

Russia is definitely worse pre 1950s though.

[afc wimbledon]

What I really hate about most US racists is they don't have the balls to own their own racism, at least when you meet some skinhead with a swastika tattoo he has the honesty (or stupidity) to say it's because he hates Jews, they don't give you some line of bull#### about it being a historic symbol of German heritage or the like.

They might be dumber than a sack of potatoes but at least they're honest.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

The context being recent memory.

Russia is definitely worse pre 1950s though.

I'm not an apologist for America's short comings, but Russia is just as bad or worse when it comes to state corruption , poverty and infringements on rights.

Maybe Russia hasn't been able to project their power overseas like they used to, but that has more to do with them being flacid superpower than a lack of desire.