Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[Enoch Root]

I think the notion of 2nd line, 3rd line, 4th line is antiquated. I see the Flames teeing up their lines more along the idea of purposes: Monahan's line as a scoring line, Backlund's line as a two-way line, Ryan's line (with maybe Frolik?) as another two-way line, and Jankowski's line as another scoring line.

And I doubt ice time will be linear between those lines - I bet it's more a function of game situations and who is playing well.

I also think that Peters likes to use the blender, which also renders the line numbers somewhat meaningless.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I think the notion of 2nd line, 3rd line, 4th line is antiquated. I see the Flames teeing up their lines more along the idea of purposes: Monahan's line as a scoring line, Backlund's line as a two-way line, Ryan's line (with maybe Frolik?) as another two-way line, and Jankowski's line as another scoring line.

And I doubt ice time will be linear between those lines - I bet it's more a function of game situations and who is playing well.

I also think that Peters likes to use the blender, which also renders the line numbers somewhat meaningless.

To some extent it's changing for sure, but it can only go so far.

The average NHL game has only 47 minutes of five on five hockey. Last year the Flames had a rough split of the following, and I doubt it's too off from other teams.

Top three forwards - 14 minutes
Next three - 13 minutes
Next three - 11 minutes
Bottom three - 9 minutes

That adds up to 47 so it seems right.

You can't really blend the lines and have three guys only playing 9 minutes unless they're your stalwarts on the PK.

So I still think you have a cut off after three lines to some degree.

I get that the Flames have 10 top 9 forwards technically, so Jankowski may be the odd man out and center that line unless he proves he should be moved up.

[Enoch Root]

The other 13 minutes matter as well. How players are utilized in special teams play influences how the lines get used.

And I see guys like Ryan and Frolik being primary PKers, which translates to other guys getting additional 5 on 5.

I suspect that, after the top 4 (Gaudreau, Monahan, Backlund and Tkachuk) that the next 6 or 7 forwards end up relatively close in total TOI.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

And I see guys like Ryan and Frolik being primary PKers, which translates to other guys getting additional 5 on 5.

What?

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Bingo

To some extent it's changing for sure, but it can only go so far.

The average NHL game has only 47 minutes of five on five hockey. Last year the Flames had a rough split of the following, and I doubt it's too off from other teams.

Top three forwards - 14 minutes
Next three - 13 minutes
Next three - 11 minutes
Bottom three - 9 minutes

That adds up to 47 so it seems right.

You can't really blend the lines and have three guys only playing 9 minutes unless they're your stalwarts on the PK.

So I still think you have a cut off after three lines to some degree.

I get that the Flames have 10 top 9 forwards technically, so Jankowski may be the odd man out and center that line unless he proves he should be moved up.

The Flames did have Brouwer and Stajan, who were everyday players that shouldn't have had jobs last season. There are much more competent players playing down the lineup that should make that spread much more even this year. Maybe a 13, 12, 11, 11 average E/S split is attainable with a line juggler like Peters.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Ryan, under Peters in Carolina, averaged 22 seconds of short-handed ice-time. 9th for forwards on the Hurricanes. (Jooris averaged 53 seconds, Lindholm averaged 1:21)

Why would he be expected to get short handed ice-time with the Flames?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Ryan, under Peters in Carolina, averaged 22 seconds of short-handed ice-time. 9th for forwards on the Hurricanes. (Jooris averaged 53 seconds, Lindholm averaged 1:21)

Why would he be expected to get short handed ice-time with the Flames?

huh

[Oling_Roachinen]

Enoch is saying that he sees Ryan being a primary PK guy.

Ryan got barely no PK time with Carolina under the same headcoach he has now. So why would he be expected him to get a lot of PK time now?

I think you'll see Backlund-Frolik and Lindholm-Jankowski, maybe even Hathaway and a few others before you see Ryan get PK time.

[Enoch Root]

Who gets PK time is a function of what players are available.

Last year, Backlund, Brouwer, Frolik and Stajan led the team in PK time. Two of them are gone. None of us know who Peters will utilize, but when I look at the lineup, I would use Ryan before Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Bennett, Czarnik, Neal, and probably before Lindholm and Jankowski as well.

But we shall see.

[bubbsy]

I think we'll see Backlund, Frolik, Jankowski, Bennett, lindholm, all get pk time.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

The Flames did have Brouwer and Stajan, who were everyday players that shouldn't have had jobs last season. There are much more competent players playing down the lineup that should make that spread much more even this year. Maybe a 13, 12, 11, 11 average E/S split is attainable with a line juggler like Peters.

Peters splits with Carolina last year were


14.0
13.5
12.8
9.5

They played more five on five but the split was essentially the same on a breakdown.

And he has a deeper group this year.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Who gets PK time is a function of what players are available.

Last year, Backlund, Brouwer, Frolik and Stajan led the team in PK time. Two of them are gone. None of us know who Peters will utilize, but when I look at the lineup, I would use Ryan before Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Bennett, Czarnik, Neal, and probably before Lindholm and Jankowski as well.

But we shall see.

Lindholm is an elite penalty killer.

[Imported_Aussie]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Lindholm is an elite penalty killer.

Seconded.
And add to that his faceoff skills and being right-sided, then you have the perfect partner for Backlund on PK 1. Having the second strong faceoff guy out there will help a lot, even if it just gives the guy taking the draw the security of being able to push the limit a bit more.

Best PK forwards on this team would be Backlund, Lindholm, Frolik, then go to Jankowski next IMO. Maybe Ryan works his way into a group with Hathaway and Bennett if Peters opts to throw him out there instead for his faceoff ability over defensive tenacity, but he hasn't been deployed as a defensive forward and his role on the team is likely to lead a bottom 6 line in an effort to get depth scoring

[SeanCharles]

Backlund, Frolik and Lindholm will be the top PKers on the team. I would think players like Tkachuk, Bennett, Jankowski and Ryan will be used as well.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Lindholm is an elite penalty killer.

Yes, but if Peters decides he wants Lindholm playing with Gaudreau and Monahan, his PK time will dry right up.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yes, but if Peters decides he wants Lindholm playing with Gaudreau and Monahan, his PK time will dry right up.

Do you think so? I don't see why Lindholm's 5v5 deployment would be significantly affected by his time on the penalty kill.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Who gets PK time is a function of what players are available.

Last year, Backlund, Brouwer, Frolik and Stajan led the team in PK time. Two of them are gone. None of us know who Peters will utilize, but when I look at the lineup, I would use Ryan before Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Bennett, Czarnik, Neal, and probably before Lindholm and Jankowski as well.

But we shall see.

The Hurricanes had one of the worst PK's in the league last year and Ryan still didn't get any significant PK time. He was utilized as an offensive player and has been for the last 2 years under Peters. Staal, Nordstrom, Lindholm, McGinn, Kruger, Jooris and Stempniak all got more short handed time on ice than Ryan. Again, he averaged just 22 seconds.

Lazar, Bennett, Jankowski, Hathaway, heck even Glass when he did play averaged more than Ryan. There's 0 indication that Peters looks at him as a defensive player, and therefore 0 reason to believe he'll be on the PK above those players, let alone Backlund, Frolik and Lindholm.

And Monahan played less than a minute more than Lindholm last year, despite playing more than a minute 'easier' time on the PP. Lindholm's utilization wouldn't need to change much at all for him to fit right in with Gaudreau and Monahan. Especially if they decide to try Neal on the PP with those guys to stack the line.

[ComixZone]

Peters actually already spoke to not using Ryan on the PK.

I think Jankowski and Bennett would make solid 2nd line PK'ers. To have either of them line-up with Lindholm on PK2 would be a solid move I think. Maybe cycle them in and out to give both players time to develop the skillset.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

The Hurricanes had one of the worst PK's in the league last year and Ryan still didn't get any significant PK time. He was utilized as an offensive player and has been for the last 2 years under Peters. Staal, Nordstrom, Lindholm, McGinn, Kruger, Jooris and Stempniak all got more short handed time on ice than Ryan. Again, he averaged just 22 seconds.

Lazar, Bennett, Jankowski, Hathaway, heck even Glass when he did play averaged more than Ryan. There's 0 indication that Peters looks at him as a defensive player, and therefore 0 reason to believe he'll be on the PK above those players, let alone Backlund, Frolik and Lindholm.

And Monahan played less than a minute more than Lindholm last year, despite playing more than a minute 'easier' time on the PP. Lindholm's utilization wouldn't need to change much at all for him to fit right in with Gaudreau and Monahan. Especially if they decide to try Neal on the PP with those guys to stack the line.

Well, that really isn't a ringing endorsement for your argument, when you think about it, is it?

[Oling_Roachinen]

It's far less for Ryan if they still didn't want him on the ice shorthanded...